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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God

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staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1448


 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God

Hi SI members,
Its hard all the time to speak of problems or shortcomings in the Church without causing some discouragement but we have a problem in all Christ loving Churches whether they be Pentecostal,Baptist,Brethren or whether we are post trib or pre trib ,whether Calvinist or Arminian.
That is of wrong authority in the Church.We have a Clergy class and a Layity Class and Jesus died so that their would be no division in the body.
How do you mean you may ask?
We are a Royal Priesthood and their is no room for a layity class is what I mean.
Let me explain further:
We have people going around in the Church calling themselves by their gifting ie Apostle Jamie or Prophet Janet etc alot of it bogus by the way but some are not but thats not important for this post. Paul clearly didnt call himself by his gifting.He was Paul and his position/Gift was an Apostle.
Most of us cannot complain though because almost all of us on SI do the same thing at our Sunday or Midweek meeting when we wrongly call the leader of our respective churches "Pastor" such as Paster John or Paster whatever.
So What?you may say but by calling a person by their gifting you have created a Clergy class and in doing that you have created a layity class.
Let me take it further again,I find no problem myself for a leader of Church getting a salary ,its just nessacary at times however the problem arrives when we start using terms like "full time" and "in the ministry".
Why?Because if one person is "in the ministry" it automatically means another person isnt again adding to the identity problem in the Church.
Whether a person gets a salary for doing 40 or 50 hrs a week or whether a person ministers 3 hrs a week To Christ We are All "full time" ministers ,To Christ We are All a "Royal Priesthood",We are all Clergy for the want of a better word.
If we dont look at it and structure our Churches that way then we have an unbiblical Layity class and a Clergy class(all good people thats not in question)that are in wrong authority.We have a layity class that have an identity problem as they dont see that its their job to minister and a clergy class who keep wondering why the church members are so latargic!
Paul,An Apostle of Christ Jesus not The Apostle Paul,
Paul a tentmaker and in his spare time he preached but always a full time minister and always a Royal Priest.
As long as we call the leader by his gifting rather than his name we will have a layity class not living their resposibilies and a clergy class expected to do everything and not understanding why they are left to it!
Their are many other side effects such as a leader can not be choosen from the layity class and the gifts in the Church will obviously be more ineffectual etc.I consider it the biggest issue we have in the Church today and the one that causes the most harm.
It does amaze me that all the Pastors I know many of them friends have gone through training and bible college and dont understand or have no knowledge of this simple and basic theology.
Yours Staff





 2020/2/21 23:30Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5415
NC, USA

 Re: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God

The recent thread “ Living in an Atmosphere of Heaven by Zac Poonen” speaks to this somewhat.

The most powerful gatherings I have been involved in are where there were no pastors present- or where they are not in their role as pastors. Because when a pastor is present in that capacity everyone defers and holds back by default.


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Todd

 2020/2/22 8:19Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1448


 Re:

Hi TMK,
I will look that thread up ,I havent seen it.
My point is that their can be 20 pastors present or 20 leaders present,in fact it would be good having a meeting with Church gifts present.Its not that we dont have leaders ,we need leaders but we cant have a layity class.
By using structure terms like "in the ministry" and "full time ministry" and calling people by their gift rather than their name we construct a clergy class and by default a layity class.Everybody that is in the body is in the Ministry ,some are a hand or foot or toenail but all are in the Ministry .Some are more prominent because they are doing 50 hrs a week and some are less prominent because the body only needs them 2 hrs a week but all are of the one body.The body of Christ might not use the thumb as much as it uses the mouth but both are full time parts of the body.Imagine if I called someone with the gift of Church Admin this Admin Joe ,how ridiculas it would be !But thats what we are at calling a Pastor by his gift!The role of Pastor has usurped its position and needs to be put back in proper order.Usurping authority is witchcraft!How can the Church command a blessing when this is in its midst.
The whole thing leads to the gifts not working in proper order and the saints do not get equiped! urs staff

 2020/2/22 12:01Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1734


 Re:

I am part of a church over 10 years, that has elders and not pastors. Elder is just a responsibility and not a title. No one gets called by any title. All are bothers and sisters. A church is not a place to meet every Sunday that is run by a board who appoints pastors. Church is a body, every part in a body should work and every member in a church is a part in the body. They have different roles like elder, prophet, teacher, helpers, Evangelist etc. But none of them have this as titles.

Jesus allowed us to have only 2 titles, brothers and servants.

I firmly believe that the church I am part of has the true biblical pattern. But pattern is not everything. Some people visit us and then decide that they too can start a church with the pattern we follow. But it is the presence of God that differentiates a church.

The pattern given for Tabernacle to Moses by God was so simple. Anyone can build one using the pattern but it is the presence of God that differentiated what Moses built.

Please seek the presence of God and not pattern.


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Sreeram

 2020/2/23 11:25Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
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 Re:

Hi Sree,
Agree with you here and this is the biblical model.
The structure of Elders as responsibilities is the starting point and any Church that doesnt have the presence of God is in a difficult place anyway.But the structure is crucial in my opinion otherwise we have a layity class which means even if we have the presence of God the Church isnt in order and will not function correctly.The Presence of God will not over ride wrong structure and thats where I disagree with you.
Unless Peter put the correct structure back in operation then Pentecost would have arrived and their would not have been an out pouring on that day ,urs staff

 2020/2/23 12:26Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1149
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 Re:


Staff:

Reality check.

I went to bible college/seminary, I sacrificed time and money, I earned a degree in theology, pastoring. I humbled myself to serve others in a local church, I gave of my tithe, I gave of my time again and again, I prayed and God answered. I was selected by a board of elders, I was above my peers and chosen 'by God' through them to preach and teach, guide and counsel, build and tear down as God directs me.
I have earned this title, I have sacrificed for his title and the last thing the Church needs is someone who has not sacrificed...not believed God, not prepared himself to be a servant...telling me just how I ought to do it and when to do it. They have no real right or authority. They are simply self-appointed policemen with no biblical mandate or place to step over me.

Pastor Marvin my-way-or-the-highway-leader-in-charge

This is all rhetorical...but its the way men think.


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Marvin

 2020/2/24 11:48Profile
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 Re:

Hi Glory and Grace,
I think that some leaders are lead to study at Bible College and these courses naturally end with degrees .The problem is when degree from a Bible College is the qualification to be a leader.
The qualification(their are other character qualifications outlined by Paul) to be a leader is that God has called you into that position and if you have a College degree good and if you have not good.Both the person with the degree and the one without just come to the role from different directions thats all.If we exclude the one without a degree we have then created a Layity class,
yours staff

 2020/2/24 12:56Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5415
NC, USA

 Re:

Hey staff I am not sure you caught the sarcasm in Marvin’s post. Just wanted to make sure.


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Todd

 2020/2/24 17:27Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1734


 Re:

The reason I mentioned 'having a Biblical pattern is of no value IF God is not present in a Church', is to show that I do not glory in the right Biblical pattern that I am part of. I glory in the presence of God and Spiritual unity of brothers, which cannot be seen plainly but has to be experienced by a needy soul.

Having said that I have great respect for Pastors, though I disagree with their title or way of achieving it. For example, I have respect for David Wilkerson who too had a title Pastor. I have respect for everyone who servers God either with or without title.

I believe the problem is with the believers who see Church only as a place of worship on Sundays, but never actually involve as a part in a body. They are satisfied with just attendance. So there is nothing wrong if they become your so called Layity class!

If they are genuinely interested in severing God then no one prevents them from evangelizing people and bringing them to a Church, then they are evangelists in that Church appointed by God not by man. They can invite other Church goers in their Church and conduct house meeting, no one prevents this! It is important what Title God gives us and not what man gives. Even if they are not valued in human eyes for their service to God, they will be rewarded in heaven.

I believe the heaven will be filled with people who served God out of love rather than severing God ONLY out of man made title.


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Sreeram

 2020/2/24 17:50Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
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 Re:

TMK,
No I did lol,It was brilliantly put lol .I guess the other thing about the set up in the Church today is the frustration it breeds I know in me anyway,staff

 2020/2/24 17:58Profile





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