SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Denominational Christianity is Not God's Best for the Church

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 )
PosterThread
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1417


 Re:

Hi Oracio
So
Are Denominations from God or not?
I dont think you can answer that question respectfully,its all good staff

 2019/11/14 19:03Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1417


 Re:

Hi GlorynGrace,
I thought further about your analogy and I think ultimately the northern tribes by wrong doctrine went into oblivion .They never reunited with the south and Gods judgement fell upon them.
Only when all the tribes believed the one doctrine and came under Godly authority did they achieve anything.It wasnt Gods Best that the twelve tribes started believing and worshipping differently and so it is with Christians he wants everyone to come under the one set of teaching which they dont at the moment,staff

 2019/11/14 19:18Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi staff, no and yes. They are not God's best or ideal situation, but He has sovereignly allowed them to exist and has used them nonetheless. Sort of like how he allowed certain things in the OT although they weren't His best. For example, God did not prefer polygamy in the OT but sovereignly allowed it and used certain men in spite of it, and even used polygamous marriages and relationships for His sovereign purposes (e.g. Jacob with Leah and Rachel and Bilhah and Zilpah).

God's heart has always been for there to be only one Church, but human weaknesses and carnality have caused multitudes of denominations to spring up and exist.

Some denominations have been coming around and making strides towards more unity, towards being more accepting of believers who have differing views.

I'll give another example from that same church I mentioned earlier. Their denomination's Statement of Faith has Premillenialism as their "official" end times view. But this church has come to the point of ignoring that part of their denomination's Statement of Faith and has allowed Amillenial and Postmillenial believers into their membership. From what I understand the denomination as a whole will likely get rid of Premillenialism from their Statement of Faith soon if they haven't done so yet.

I once went to a Baptist church that would not accept me into their membership due to me being Amil and their Statement of Faith having Premil on it. They thought it would open up the door to liberalism if they allowed the Amil view.

So that's another example of how churches can in fact work toward unity despite disagreements in non-essentials.


_________________
Oracio

 2019/11/14 22:31Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Another thought came to mind. It's been said that severe persecution tends to force believers to lay aside their non-essential differences. So maybe that's what it will take, for Christians to be forced to go underground under severe persecution. Who knows.


_________________
Oracio

 2019/11/14 23:33Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1417


 Re:

Hi Oracio,

Your Qoute:
____________________________________________________________
Your Qoute:

God's heart has always been for there to be only one Church, but human weaknesses and carnality have caused multitudes of denominations to spring up and exist.

Some denominations have been coming around and making strides towards more unity, towards being more accepting of believers who have differing views.
___________________________________________________________

The reason for denominations to exist is usually because they are the end of some movement of God.They have a different "Doctrine" that singles them out from another denomination.Ultimately its doctrine thats the difference and the effects of that doctrine.

Lets all be lovey dovey and unity will occur,we will allow a whole lot of false doctrine be thought and accepted (non essentials as you call them).If they are non essentials whats the point in teaching them on a Sunday morning or Wednesday evening or Saturday afternoon when ever ur Church meets,
Its a fantasy in my opinion to say Churches are making strides to unity.It sounds very close to ecumensim to me.
Wiki:
(The term "ecumenism" refers to efforts by Christians of different Church traditions to develop closer relationships and better understandings.)

Oracio in fairness you are hiding behind the term "non essentials" .If we strip down the Gospel of Jesus Christ enough we can find something that all agree on .These other teachings can be discarded they are non essential or dont open your mouth about these other teaching because you will offend a brother or sister.That is an extremely dangerous path to go down.
staff


 2019/11/15 6:42Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1417


 Re:

Hi all
I get a feeling that their is alot of fear in accepting what Im saying.Not because what Im saying isnt true or even very obvious
i.e Denonimations are not what God's wants and denominations have different doctrines from eash other thus causing them to divide or stay divided.
The fear is coming from my answer to the problem.Basically because you are not sure of my solution to the problem you wont accept even simple obvious truths easily.

The excuses given to support denominations is quite staggering given that SI members are noted for their love of persecution and die hard Christianity,we will never surrender kinda stuff.

Is the "restoration of Apostolic Doctrine and Authority" so worrying to you or so frightful to you that we have to make up excuses for the continued existance of denominations?

urs staff

 2019/11/15 7:03Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1091
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re: no fear just not sold

Hi Staff: In your last post you challenged us to look at the motive behind our postings...and to see if fear towards an establish "apostolic doctrine" being brought to bare upon us is why we answer as we do?

As for me, I don't recognize fear of apostolic doctrine as my motive or basis for my answers.

So, let me back up just a little.

Your premise...denominations are a hindrance to Christian unity and in short a boat-anchor to the body of Christ trying to move forward as a whole to preach and live out the gospel? That's what I interpret at least.

On the surface this premise is hardly worth refuting because most everyone can posit some anecdotal commentary or experience that a 'denomination' had some negative impact on them.
With that...the premise gets a free pass.

But lets take the premise out...like a 4 wheel drive and give it some obstacles to tackle.

1. Are all complaints about denominationalism valid, and if they are not 'all' valid what criteria can one use to sift through these complaints and come away with truth about the real culprit?
2. If there is any good emerging from denominationalism in what form does it take?
3. If there is good from denominations can the same 'good' be derived from difference sources without denominational enclosure?
4. What does the replacement denomination look like that will supersede all of these inferior forms?
5. Upon what basis can those within denominations go forward to erode and replace denominations that is not itself merely another denomination?
6. Can denominations be replaced without returning to Roman Catholicism in its basic form ie, Popes, priest, temples, traditions and perish?
7. Upon whom has God placed this mandate to undertake the removal of a world-wide, world-scale, world-affecting denominational model with a non-denominational model that has it's own intrinsic ability to remain stable and true to that model?

Denominations exist because the human mind cannot conceive anything else but a denomination.

Try it on for fun, try thinking of a set of doctrines called "apostolic doctrine" that are uniformly believed among a set of people who willingly adhere to them. Then add to that a a white-blood-cell namely a rejecting quality within those believers that refuse anything but apostolic doctrine. Add to that a leadership which only teaches 'apostolic doctrine' and, which admits only those who will abide by such doctrine.
To do so in any real detail always emerges in the form of...you guessed it, another denomination...and one that claims authority over all lesser forms.

My point I hope to make... is denomination are here to stay until God has divinely orchestrated a new mode of unifying believers while giving them freedom of expression within the confines of their own cultures, races an traditions.

We may in fact sense the need for improvement but to even see what that looks like...other than the reimaging of another denomination cannot be done outside of a complete paradigm shift as was given in going from old testament to new.

Lastly, to many since they cannot conceive of anything but 'another' denomination will be fearful of the removal of their denominations because the last thing they want is a cold dead Presbyterianism... or a howling Toronto movement... or a sloppy kum-by-ya inclusion of everything episcopal Church.

Im just not sold on jettisoning denominationalism since there is simply nothing else that can be conceived at this time in the world.

Thanks for the thought provoking topic.


_________________
Marvin

 2019/11/15 10:12Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1417


 Re:

Hi Glory and Grace,
It seems to me you are changing your tune but i'l entertain the melody you are playing!I think I've answered all these points but i'l do it again.

1. Are all complaints about denominationalism valid, and if they are not 'all' valid what criteria can one use to sift through these complaints and come away with truth about the real culprit?
Answer:I readily accept that good has come out of movements of God that have then turned into a denominations.God can use people in denominations to bring the unsaved to salvation.Its not an endorsement of that denomination though.

2. If there is any good emerging from denominationalism in what form does it take?
Answer:Compares to the real deal which is Apostolic Structure I can't see any good coming out of a denomination (as a opposed to the movement of God that preceeded the denomination.)
3. If there is good from denominations can the same 'good' be derived from difference sources without denominational enclosure?
Answer : God can use all things(even rubbish things like denominations)for the good for those who are in Christ Jesus.i.e just because God uses something doesn't mean its from him or its his best
4. What does the replacement denomination look like that will supersede all of these inferior forms?
Answer :Now this I did answer over and over and over.It will be the same structure as was at the foundation of the Church which is the Apostolic structure as is stated in Acts and Revelation.It is not a replacement denomination but it is a replacement structure.
5. Upon what basis can those within denominations go forward to erode and replace denominations that is not itself merely another denomination?
Answer :No it is not another denomination but we will all come under Apostolic teaching and Authority in a short period of time not in a long period of time as the term erosion suggests
6. Can denominations be replaced without returning to Roman Catholicism in its basic form ie, Popes, priest, temples, traditions and perish?
Answer: Yes because Roman Catholicism is based on false and poor doctrine once that doctrine is replaced with Apostolic doctrine then people will come out of it or not.But Apostles would never accept most of their teachings.
7. Upon whom has God placed this mandate to undertake the removal of a world-wide, world-scale, world-affecting denominational model with a non-denominational model that has it's own intrinsic ability to remain stable and true to that model?
Anwser:If you are asking who will achieve this,then we do not know yet but by a world wide move of his Spirit Apostolic doctrine will be restored.Basically in fairness you are asking me who are the Twelve Apostles before they have been revealed .How would I know who they are until God reveals them.
Is appearance of stability that important to you?But there has never been more stable a structure than under James,Peter,Paul and the new testament Church.
____________________________________________________________
Your Qoute
Denominations exist because the human mind cannot conceive anything else but a denomination.
____________________________________________________________
Answer :I can conceive something other than a denomination.
____________________________________________________________
Your Qoute:
My point I hope to make... is denomination are here to stay until God has divinely orchestrated a new mode of unifying believers while giving them freedom of expression within the confines of their own cultures, races an traditions.
___________________________________________________________
On this I do agree Denominations are here to stay "UNTIL GOD HAS DIVINELY ORCHESTRATED."
In God's timing he does orchestrate a move of his Spirit that will not introduce a new mode but will restore an old mode i.e the structure of the first century church which did unify believers under one doctrine while giving them freedom of expression and it did take into account cultures,races and traditions but if the those cultures and traditions were not of God they were thrown out which I am sure you would agree was the right thing to do.
___________________________________________________________
Your Qoute:
Im just not sold on jettisoning denominationalism since there is simply nothing else that can be conceived at this time in the world.
___________________________________________________________
Ithink in this Qoute you have made my arguement for me perfectly.

You see GloryandGrace in that Qoute their is exactly what I said in the previous post ,Their is a "Fear".You are afraid of jettisoning denominationalism because you cant see anything better .Basically you are saying "better the devil you know"
You are saying on the one hand denominations maybe not God's best but on the other hand you are saying we have to stick with them because we dont know any better.I have to admit what I am saying brings even "fear" into my own heart.i.e living Christianity like the first century Christian.

In closing I agree with you if thats what you are saying and indeed at the very start of the thread I said the same which is basically "denominations are not God's Best but their is nothing we can do about it at this present time except to recognize that very fact which is that denominations are not God's Best and understand what God's Best is"
I can conceive something better that is the structure of the first century Church,staff
Ps thanks to all for bringing out the relevent points like the Good Berean would do and continue to do so if you feel inclined


 2019/11/15 13:30Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy