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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Denominational Christianity is Not God's Best for the Church

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staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Sree
Denominations are not Gods first or second hand plan but come from man.
Denominations come out of movements .The movements are blessed by God but not the denominations.As you say John Wesley and Booth were movements that eventually turned into denominations when things went stale.
On The verse you qoute to back up the existance of denominations,I cant see any link but Paul seemed to be admonishing them on their behaviour and not linked to denominations at all.
1 Cor 11:19
17But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. 19For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you. 20Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, 21for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you

Movements are from God but not so they turn into denominations which cant be blessed by God as they are not from him,
The further away from John Wesley and Booth the movement got the deader it became,staff

 2019/11/10 11:09Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1758


 Re: Staff

You do not seem to understand the meaning of denomination.

Dictionary definition - a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian Church.

In short it is just a division or a branch of Christianity. It is true that Protestants have lot of branches or divisions or denominations, how ever you put it up. But based on 1 Cor 11:19 that I quoted, God himself will allow divisions, which is Good in God's eyes. This meaning of the verse which is very clear, no one can deny it. The purpose of division is to separate the God approved people from those who are not.

Based on the verse it is clear that divisions among believers is not a wrong thing. God allows it. So having divisions in Protestant Churches in the name of denominations is not a bad thing in God's eyes. This is far better than Protestant Churches staying as a single denomination that is fully corrupt.

This is how God sees things. As a protestant I am not ashamed of multiple denominations as God himself is not ashamed of dividing his disciples.

Lets take the example of John Wesley, he started the Methodist denomination or movement. Whatever you call it. A person who followed John Wesley and his teaching will not associate with anyother church during Wesley's time. SO clearly it is similar to modern day Denominations. I find nothing wrong with Methodist becoming a denomination if they hold the values of John Wesley, but sadly they do not. Hence God has to bring his people out of it into other movements of God.

In short the essence of my post is, divisions among disciples of Jesus is acceptable (good) in God's eyes compared to a united Church which is totally corrupt.



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Sreeram

 2019/11/10 17:40Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Sree,
Im going to comment on your ending qoute first,

The best of God is a united Church that is not corrupt compares to a united Church that is corrupt(although if it is corrupt it could never be united except in evil)
God allows things that are not right like division just as he allowed slavery for a time as he weaned Israel off the practice or the practice of more than one wife until he weaned them off that etc

You are making no distiction between division and denomination .The division allowed in Corinthians has nothing to do with denominations ,The division in Corinthians is to do with bad behaviour not poor doctrine.
Divisions are not acceptable by God in the long run,we are one Church and one bride.Divisions are acceptable and holy within the One Church such as the gifts list out and we are to watch out not to have petty squabbles and to look after the weaker brother and sister.

I am not talking what is good or better but what is God's best and denominational Christianiy has a fundemental problem ,its Authority is unbiblical and not from God.
It leads invariably to the Pastor being in a usurped role out of line with its proper pecking order not to mention Committees being in control of Churches(which is in fact witchcraft)
Just because God plays the hand thats dealt doesnt mean he agrees with the game but rather he works all things(good and bad) for the good for those in Christ Jesus.

When the Sadduecees challanged Jesus regarding the marriage of woman to seven brothers he corrected their doctrine which had divided them from the Pharisees,namely that their was a resurection which they did not believe .Proper Doctrine makes denominations unnessacary.To the Sadducees he anwered

Jesus answered, “You are mistaken because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God

He didnt namby pamby them and say its ok to have ur denomination or sect based on not knowing the scriptures or Gods Power but rather corrected them with Authority.

In his good time God will use proper Apostolic Doctrine to bring the Church in line with the word wholly and so ending denomination by proper doctrine,staff

 2019/11/10 18:26Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Staff:

you said: "In his good time God will use proper Apostolic Doctrine to bring the Church in line with the word wholly and so ending denomination by proper doctrine"

I think there's a lot of truth in what youre saying but Im not so sure how God will bring such unification.

To me...its impossible to get past human limitations. Even in your last quote..."proper apostolic doctrine" just who says what is proper for everyone to come into alignment with it? We are fraught with caveats in every turn.

What God's final unification will look like is for the prophets to see and declare. I have not seen what such a unification will look like or even if I had a glimpse, articulate that unity in accuracy.

The whole subject dies the death of a thousand caveats.
even if I say "we refuse all denominations", those who would agree with you...do they now add this statement to their 'statement of faith' for their Church? By that simple action you are in fact imitating the very thing denominations do.

I think Sree had some good things to say about denominations...but the issue itself is so thorny no matter how you handle it, you or someone else will bleed over it.


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Marvin

 2019/11/11 13:01Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Gloryandgrace,
I think the important point and the main point you make and the one that seems impossible with man but is possible with God is

How God will Bring such unification?

So if we try to bring about unification then as you say it will "die a thousand caveats ".
Thats why I was careful in saying although we can recognize whats wrong we cant do anything about it as you say the issue is so thorny and not in our ability to solve.
The problem is doctrine and only when God restores Apostolic Doctrine will the problem be solved i.e when we all come under Apostolic Doctrine their will be no denominations as we will be under the one doctrine.
We need not reject or refuse all denominations because it will solve nothing.
So that leaves us with the Answer which is:
God will restore Apostolic Doctrine with a world wide move of his Spirit in his own time,Not by might but by his Spirit.
Is their anything we can do?
Recognize denominations arent Gods best,
Pray for God to restore Apostolic Doctrine in the Church
Recognize the move of the Spirit when he comes,
urs staff
P.S
I believe what im saying is from the Spirit and I only bring the topic up as to help understanding of what is to come.
I hazard to guess that everyone on the forum would be happy if we understood the word as one to a mature man.
Some of the doctrine I hold dear maybe wrong for instance Im a pre tribber and when Apostolic Doctrine is restored I might not be.



 2019/11/11 20:59Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

For a while I attended a church that accepted Baptistic believers as well as those who believe in infant baptism. They performed infant baptisms separate from their main Sunday services, and those who were Baptistic were not obligated to attend those baptisms. There was mutual respect and unity. It showed that churches can have unity despite such disagreements on non-essential doctrines.

I think an ideal church in this present age would allow for believers to disagree on all non-essentials while maintaining unity. For example, believers who believed in the continuation of certain Spiritual gifts would be able to fellowship right alongside cessationist believers. Continuationists could have their own meetings (whether on Sundays or otherwise) where they could practice the gifts. And they could all come together in meetings where there would be mutual respect and edification.

The same unity would be displayed among Calvinists and non-Calvinists, Pre-Trib and Post-Trib believers, etc.

Again, I don’t believe the Lord would command for us all to agree on non-essential doctrines. I believe He would have us working toward uniting despite our minor differences. The disunity and contentions displayed among different denominations is a mark of immaturity and carnality. They refuse to give any space to anyone or anything that doesn’t embrace their pet doctrines.

I think we need to be careful when speaking about the restoration of Apostolic Doctrine in the last days. Because someone may arise in our midst and claim that they are restoring Apostolic Doctrine in these last days and seek to “set the record straight” on non-essential doctrines. That has happened several times and cults have been born.

I believe we already have Apostolic Doctrine in terms of essential biblical doctrines that separate us from false religions and cults. We need to unite in the essentials we all embrace and be charitable toward one another in non-essentials.

We can civilly and respectfully discuss our disagreements on non-essentials, without being mean toward one another or dividing over those disagreements. The problem arises when we refuse to give the other brother or sister room to disagree, when we demand that they see things our way else we start calling them names or tell them to shut up. This should not be.


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Oracio

 2019/11/12 12:34Profile
MrBillPro
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3286
Texas

 Re: Oracio

Quote:
Oracio asked...We can civilly and respectfully discuss our disagreements on non-essentials, without being mean toward one another or dividing over those disagreements. The problem arises when we refuse to give the other brother or sister room to disagree, when we demand that they see things our way else we start calling them names or tell them to shut up. This should not be.



Brother, this is why I hardy ever post here anymore, I just do more reading, because some folks here believe their opinions are literally scripture.


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Bill

 2019/11/12 14:18Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re: brother Bill

Brother, I’m not gonna lie, that’s one reason I’ve also taken a hiatus from posting here at times. I know that in times past I’ve either instigated a negative reaction or reacted myself and got caught up in that kind of contention here.

One thing that works against us here is that it’s hard to convey our full expressions in text form. For me personally, I tend to be forthright and just speak things as I see them without giving that much thought, so I have to be careful not to come across as being too harsh.


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Oracio

 2019/11/12 15:18Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Oracio,
Its hard to get a point across using the written word even the bible!If Peter or James were here talking straight to us the message would be conveyed quicker and clearer as is the case when we use SI forums too.

So Im not talking about Civility or trying to understand other Christians point of view or even coming together on programmes where ever possible,Im taking these points as a given that we do these anyway.Im not talking about being Charitable in non essentials this is a given and but we still have denominations a manmade division.

Non of the above lead to denominations

In reponse to your quoute:
I think we need to be careful when speaking about the restoration of Apostolic Doctrine in the last days. Because someone may arise in our midst and claim that they are restoring Apostolic Doctrine in these last days and seek to “set the record straight” on non-essential doctrines. That has happened several times and cults have been born.

Paul clearly writes about non essential arguements so I think that subject is well taken care off and I am only dealing here with the issues that cause denominational division.
We cannot fail to do what is right and listen to what is right out of fear that a cult might arise or something bad might happen .We cant be governed by "fear",If thats the case we will miss any move of God.If John Wesley knew what would happen to the Methodists after he was gone he might not have preached at all!

In response to your qoute:
I believe we already have Apostolic Doctrine in terms of essential biblical doctrines that separate us from false religions and cults. We need to unite in the essentials we all embrace and be charitable toward one another in non-essentials.

The Apostolic Doctrine is there alright in the bible but we have no Apostolic Authority or Apostolic structure in the Church to admister it.

How can I believing in the gifts unite daily and agree with a Baptist who doesnt believe in the gifts?
How Can I who believes you cannot lose your salvation attend a fellowship that believes you can and sit there in unity and in agreement?When I see that as a works gospel and another person doesnt.

The world should be laughing at us Christians who have a bible with 66 books and about 40 different writers but cannot answer or agree on the basic questions.

So again I say God will move by his Spirit to restore Apostolic Authority and indeed Apostolic Doctrine will be able to refute cults and any non essential beliefs that causes division if thats anyones worry about the restoration of Apostolic Authority in the Church.
Their can be no real arguement in my opinion that denominations are any thing but tolerated by God but that he has a bigger plan and greater plan than a Church divided by essential doctrinal issues, staff


 2019/11/12 15:58Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi staff, you wrote:

Quote:
How can I believing in the gifts unite daily and agree with a Baptist who doesnt believe in the gifts?
How Can I who believes you cannot lose your salvation attend a fellowship that believes you can and sit there in unity and in agreement?When I see that as a works gospel and another person doesnt.



Are you saying that belief in the gift of tongues being for today and belief in eternal security are essential doctrines to you, over which you must divide from others?

Neither John Wesley (whom you commended in this thread) nor William Booth believed in eternal security nor in the gift of tongues being for today.


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Oracio

 2019/11/12 18:02Profile





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