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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Understanding Repentence

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todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Understanding Repentence

I am pretty sure this topic has been discussed at length before but I don't think I've ever taken part. I was hoping some would be willing to discuss it afresh.

My current understanding of repentence is that it basically means "to change the way you think." [i]Fruit[/i] of repentence (such as remorse, crying, reconciliation, etc.) is something different. Those things might happen, but that's not what repentence is. Those things are evidence of repentence.

So if I was talking to someone who didn't know "Chrisianeze", instead of saying, "You need to repent" I could just say "You need to change the way you think." Right?

 2005/7/13 2:12Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re: Understanding Repentence

todd,

The best take I've heard is Greg Locke on this site, "A change of mind that results in a change of actions." There is much more that many on this site could add to this in a spiritual explanation (do you think that's true or not, brothers), but that is the best layman's term I've heard.

Even more simply, "turn." From sin, toward Christ.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2005/7/13 2:18Profile









 Re: Understanding Repentence

No, cause i thought Repentance is talked about in Hebrew as Turning TOWARD GOD. And in the Greek Turning AWAY FROM SIN. Nothing about 'thinking', ive never heard that (also, i could be wrong..because i never looked those translations of 'repent').

I normally(in the past, before Ray Comfort) tell people, or ask them 'have you ever done anything wrong before, well if you love God you should turn away from all those wrongful things. Do you think a marriage should be all in adultry or a 1 on 1 commentment?' Of course, those questions would have pausing in between.

 2005/7/13 2:19
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

lgb,

Is there any Scriptural back-up for including "a change of action" in the understanding of repentence? I think it's really important to distinguish what repentence actually means and what might happen as a result of it.

I understand why people would want to tag on "resulting in a change of actions", because that will probabaly, perhaps definately, happen if they truly change their mind about something. But I want to be real clear, the word itself does not speak about actions, right?

Yesh,

Maybe you're thinking of Hebrews 6:1 which speaks of, "a foundation of repentence from dead works and faith toward God." But I just understand this as changing the way you think concerning this area of dead works and faith. Now, instead of thinking that works will save you, understand that it is faith toward God that you need. This is foundational change in thinking that must take place.

It's like if I was preaching I could say, "Your dead works can't save you, faith towards God can! Change the way you think!

 2005/7/13 2:34Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re: Understanding Repentence

Repentance is more than just changing the way you think.

It is turning from Satan and turning to God.

In Philologos' sermon on Repentance (http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2161) he gives a very simple "military" definition:

Halt!
About Face!
Quick March!


_________________
Mark Nash

 2005/7/13 2:36Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Nasher,

What I think is important is to distinguish between the [i]subject[/i] of repentence and simply the word itself.

I can definately understand including the action aspect of it in a discussion on the subject of repentence. But I am unsure if it has a place if we are just looking at the word itself.

I don't think I've listened to Philo's sermon, perhaps I will do that soon.

I like the "Halt! About face!" if we're referring to what takes place in the mind (changing the way you think), but it's the "Quick march!" that I question when only discussing the word itself.

I am curious if Philo was referring to only what the word "repentence" means or if he was referrring to the subject of repentence. The man himself will likely be able to clear that up for us shortly.

This may seem like an insignifant subtlety, but it makes a big difference, at least as I have come to understand it.

 2005/7/13 4:03Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

hi todd
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2161]Repentance (Rora 2003)[/url]

Description: Having begun in the Spirit. Part 1 of 4; Repentance, a change of direction. Delivered at a conference in Devon UK. “Session 1” examines the nature of genuine repentance by demonstrating its essential ‘God-consciousness’. It distinguishes between a genuine sorrow which leads to genuine repentance, and ‘the world’s sorrow’ which leads to death.

Let me know what you think?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/13 6:35Profile









 Re:

Quote:

todd wrote:

Yesh,

Maybe you're thinking of Hebrews 6:1 which speaks of, "a foundation of repentence from dead works and faith toward God." But I just understand this as changing the way you think concerning this area of dead works and faith. Now, instead of thinking that works will save you, understand that it is faith toward God that you need. This is foundational change in thinking that must take place.

It's like if I was preaching I could say, "Your dead works can't save you, faith towards God can! Change the way you think!



I think that is doing the scripture injustice. You have taken what Hebrew 6 was talking about. It was talking about 6 foundational things of the faith, because they were still 'milk drinkers' and not 'meat eaters'.

Any works without God is Dead works. It's not 'solo faith'. The bible has NEVER preached that, OT and NT, God has never changed salvation. Faith without works is dead, thats not in the just the book of James, check out the OT.

Oh, i looked up the hebrew word 'repent' and the greek word 'repent'.

So far, i've only seen 3 different definations on the word Repent. 2 in the hebrew, one in the greek.

One in the hebrew means 'to be sorry'.
Another in the hebrew means 'to turn back' (to God in this case).
Greek means 'to change the way of thinking'.

So, i can see how the preacher ive heard said 'In hebrew it means to turn to God and in Greek it means to turn away from sin'. So, it is correct.. (talking to my self on this one)

 2005/7/13 11:37
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Yesh,

You make a very good point about Heb. 6:1. I think it is an excellent insight and that you are right in saying "And works without God is dead works." I didn't mean to come across as denying that faith without works is dead. I wasn't even thinking about that.

But like you said, Hebrews 6 is talking about the foundational things of the faith. And what is more foundational than how we can be made righteous? So I think we are both right here. I just didn't include the truth that you have brought forth. So now I think we have a more complete understanding of it which I am happy about.

Yet this doesn't change the principle as far as repentance. I still understand the verse as referring to changing the way you think concerning works and faith. We have to change the way we think about works. We have to understand that our good works won't make us righteous and can't save us. And we must understand that faith is the way to righteousness.

It's a changing of the way we think, a changing of direction, if you will- [i]from[/i] a place of thinking we can be made righteous by works apart from God, [i]towards[/i] a place of thinking that we are made righteous through faith in God.

I admit, the language in this verse is not the clearest to me, but it still see it and think it works well this way.

I did a little more study and I've found 2 Hebrew and 5 Greek words that I think are most relevant to this discussion. Let me expand on these words to facilitate our discussion. For my Word Study on the Hebrew words I am using the lexical aids in my NASB Key Word Study Bible and quoting from it.

The 2 Hebrew words are "Nacham" and "Shuwb."

1. [u][b]Nacham[/b][/u] (#5162)
"To draw the breath forcibly, to pant to breath strongly, to groan; to be sorry, to pity, to grieve; to feel repentance, to repent; to take revenge or vengeance; to have compassion, to console, to comfort... The KJV translates [i]nacham[/i] as "repent" 38 times. Most of these refer to God's repentance. Usually when man repents, the verb [i]shuwb[/i] is used... [u]Essentially [i]nacham[/i] is a change of heart or disposition, [b]a change of mind[/b], a change of purpose, [b]or a change of ones conduct[/b][/u]. The Septuagint translates [i]nacham[/i] by both [i]metanoeo[/i] (3340) and [i]metamelomai[/i] (3338)."

2. [u][b]Shuwb[/b][/u] (#7725)
"To turn back, to turn (oneself), to turn around, to return, to come back, to turn around (figuratively), to turn to Jehovah (i.e., a spiritual return to the Lord)... to turn to, to turn from, to cease from, to leave off, e.g. from an evil way... to be restored; to restore, to repeat; to cause to return, to lead back, to seduce; to refresh, to be turned aside; to turn away, to turn upon; to draw, to bring, to drive, to lead back; to give back; to answer; to recall, to revoke, to render, to offer; to be brought back, to be given back... [u]The basic meaning of [i]shuwb[/i] is movement back to the point of departure[/u]. A good example of reversal in direction is found in 2 Kings 20:10-11 concerning the sundial... The word is used of simple physical motion about 270 times... A number of places refer to the return from exile."

The 5 Greek words are "Metamellomai", "Metanoeo", "Metanoia", and "Strepho", and "Epistrepho."

1. [u][b]Metamellomai[/b][/u] (#3338)
This word literally means "to care after." It's like looking back on the mistake you just made and feeling bad about it. Regret. However, this word translated "change [His] mind" in Hebrews 7:21.

2. [u][b]Metanoeo[/b][/u] (#3340)
This word literally means "to know after." My NASB lexical aid describes it: "It signifies a change of mind consequent to the after knowledge indicating regret for the course pursued and resulting in a wiser view of the past and future."
I picture a detective who has been on a case for months and feels somwehat confident about his assessment of it but something just doesn't quite add up and it has been driving him crazy. Then all of the sudden he gets a new clue that makes it all clear. I picture him slap his forehead like "duh." He gets it now. He "knows after."
The Thayer and Smith Greek Lexicon gives these 2 definitions: (a) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent and (b) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins.

3. [u][b]Metanoia[/b][/u] (#3341)
My NASB lexical aid says, "a change of mind... a change or alteration of mind. Repentance, change of mind from evil to good or from worse to better... cf. baptism of repentance, baptism which identifies one as having repented."

4. [u][b]Strepho[/b][/u] (#4762)
To turn, to turn oneself; in a moral sense, to change, alter, adopt another course.

5. [u][b]Epistrepho[/b][/u] (#1994)
To turn toward, turn about, return, convert, turn to God and holiness.


Ok, finally finished with that. I'm just going to post this and then later I will try and communicate some of what I've learned from this study so far.

 2005/7/15 1:38Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Ron,
I didn't get a chance to listen to your message yet but I hope to soon. I want to kind of get my bearings first.

 2005/7/15 2:46Profile





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