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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : When did Satan fall like lightning?

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TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5339
NC, USA

 Re:

The author is still importing personal opinion into the text.

Of course the language in Ez and Is is imagery and hyperbole! Practically the whole of both books is imagery and hyperbole.

In Ez 31:3,9 the Assyrian is said to have been a tree in the garden of Eden! Is that imagery and hyperbole? Of course! We are not constrained to try to figure out how the Assyrian could have been in Eden. The author did not intend us to, nor did he intend us to apply his pronouncements about the pride and pomp of God’s earthly enemies(and they had plenty) to some fallen angel when no fallen angel is ever mentioned, anywhere. The only cherub mentioned is the prince of Tyre and it’s obvious hyperbolic language. The Assyrian was not really a tree in Eden and the prince of Tyre was not really a cherub in Eden. A plain reading is that these were earthly kings filled with pride and poetic language is used to describe them.

Scripture never ever says that Satan was an angel. He was not a cherub in the garden of Eden, he was a serpent. The only cherub in Eden was the one posted to keep Adam and Eve from re-entering.

I don't know if Satan is a fallen angel, cherub, ape or space alien, because the scriptures are silent on this. I personally have no dog in the hunt. My entire point is that we don't know. Since an assertion has been made about the passage, which is not found in the passage itself, the burden of proof is on the one making the assertion to show that they have found something (in this passage) that applies to Satan. That burden has not been adequately met in any arguments above.

The truth is that, if we had never heard that the king of Tyre in this passage is Satan, there is nothing in the passage that would make this identification for us. Even if one were naive enough to take the imagery of Ezekiel's prophecies literally, there is nothing to identify a literal fallen cherub specifically with Satan. There is nothing elsewhere in scripture that hints at such a background for Satan, and nothing in this passage to identify Satan with the cherub in question.


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Todd

 2019/10/25 7:16Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1230
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: TMK

Going,...going....gone!


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Fletcher

 2019/10/25 8:07Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5339
NC, USA

 Re:

Not sure what that means but if you are referring to my sanity you may be right. Ha.


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Todd

 2019/10/25 9:38Profile
CalvaryCom
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Joined: 2007/9/29
Posts: 266
Greater NYC area

 Re:

If our Lord Jesus said, "I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning," (and He did) then why would you think he was merely a serpent? The Hebrew word "nachash" means "bright, shining one," though it is rendered as serpent in the English translation of Genesis. If Satan can transform himself into an angel of light, as Paul wrote, why would you think he's merely a serpent?

He is referred to as a fleeing serpent, a flying serpent, prince of the powers of the air, the accuser of the brethren, a murderer from the beginning, the father of all lies, and sundry other vice-laden states in the Scriptures. He was brash enough to tempt the Messiah Himself in the wilderness, even quoting the Psalms and bringing Jesus to the pinnacle of the temple, besides showing Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory in a moment of time.

This is a powerful being, a horrible deceiver, who is active to this very day.


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Alec

 2019/10/25 18:40Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5339
NC, USA

 Re:

Well I didn’t mean he was literally a serpent but that is the form he took in the garden. Genesis does not identify his true nature.

None can doubt the devil's ability to "be transformed into an angel of light" (2 Cor.11:14), but this does not tell us any more about his actual nature than we can learn about the true character of his ministers from the fact that they "are transformed into ministers of righteousness" (v.15)

I have said that I don't know whether Satan is a fallen angel or not, since the Bible is silent on the subject. He might be—or not. Why in the world would anyone care one way or the other?

I have no doubts whatsoever about the vileness of satan and his goals of destruction of human beings.

Jesus was never complimentary about satan. Many Christians seem to be.


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Todd

 2019/10/25 19:26Profile
SugarRun
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Joined: 2011/2/6
Posts: 47
IA

 Re: Satan falling as lightening

Arthur Bloomfield End of the days Page 242
Shall Michael stand up.
Michael is “ the archangel”- the only one so named in the Bible , Jude 9 “Yet Michael when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.”
He seems to be the one who commands the armed forces of heaven. Whenever he is mentioned, there is something to be done requiring force. His most prominent place is in connection with resurrection, for it was he who contended with Satan about the body of Moses. When Satan contested Moses’ resurrection, Michael had to take a hand.
The fact that Moses was raised from the dead is evidenced by his appearance on the Mount of Transfiguration in his glorified body, along with Elijah, who was “ caught up”. Thus, there will be two witnesses to the promise of resurrection: one representing those who will be “ caught up,” and one representing those who will be “ raised up” from the dead.
Three signals will announce the Rapture: the shout, the trumpet, and the voice of the archangel, Michael.
1 Thess. 4:16 “ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first”.
As usual, Michael will be there because there will be opposition to be overcome. But if Satan in past days so opposed the resurrection of one man, Moses, then he will use his whole power to try to prevent the resurrection of all the saints. All the principalities and powers of darkness in high places will mobilized to keep the new bodies of the saints from passing through.
Revelation says that Satan will muster one third of the angels; to counter this force will be poised not just Michael, but Michael and all the angels. The story is told so vividly in Revelation that it needs no comment.
Rev. 12: 7-12 “ And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of out brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! For the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
The resurrection has a double result: not only in heaven filled with saints with their new bodies, but Satan is cast our and must now operate on the earth as a man. When Daniel wrote the following, he too saw the saints in heaven and Satan cast out:
Daniel 7:9-11 “ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool: his throne was like a fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgement was set, and the books were opened. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed and given to the burning flame”
At the time of Daniel Chapter 7, the details of the Rapture had to be left out. Daniels saw the saints in heaven, but there was no occasion to tell how they got there; now in Rev. 12 we have added details concerning “ that time”.


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Eileen

 2019/10/26 18:16Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1973


 Re: When Michael rises

1 Now at that time MICHAEL, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, WILL ARISE. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Just prior to the resurrection (Dan 12:2 - to occur at the second coming of Christ) there will be a time of trouble such as never occurred for the nation of Israel and the world (See Matt 24:21). It is the time when Michael shall rise in behalf of the people of the nation Israel.

It can be coordinated and synchronized with Rev 12.

7 And there was war in heaven, MICHAEL and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,

8 and they were not strong enough, and THERE WAS NO LONGER A PLACE FOUND FOR THEM IN HEAVEN.

9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; HE WAS THROWN DOWN TO THE EARTH, and his angels were thrown down with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

13 And when the dragon SAW THAT HE WAS THROWN DOWN TO THE EARTH, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. (Rev 12:7-13)

At the time of the end Michael will rise (Dan 12:1) and a final conflict will begin with the devil finally and irrevocably being cast out of heaven. He will be thrown to the earth full of wrath knowing he has but a short time. He will then persecute the woman Israel (a time of trouble for the nation such as never has occurred). His final time of wrath is the final great tribulation that will dwarf all others in its intensity and scope. Even folks like Derek Prince though this to be a time in the future at he end of the age.

Yet in the midst of this,

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

The true church (likely a martyr church) will OVERCOME!


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David Winter

 2019/10/27 9:35Profile





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