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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : When did Satan fall like lightning?

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TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5339
NC, USA

 Re:

Lucifer is nowhere identified with Satan in the scriptures.


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Todd

 2019/10/22 17:16Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1988
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Todd: If you mean that there is nowhere in scripture that explicitly says, "Lucifer is Satan", I have to totally agree with you. But there is no being in scripture matching the description of Lucifer given in Isaiah other than Satan. So Isaiah has to be speaking of a totally unknown being not mentioned in scripture or he has to be speaking of Satan.


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Travis

 2019/10/23 8:24Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5339
NC, USA

 Re:

“Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12) is clearly identified as the "king of Babylon" (Isa.14:4) and as a "man" (v.16). The lofty ambitions of "Lucifer" are exactly those of the builders of the Tower of Babel (the origins of Babylon).

I surely understand that this idea got started somewhere way back and it is now firmly grounded in tradition, but I have to reiterate that no where in scripture is Lucifer identified as satan.

Trust me, I am not questioning the existence of satan- I just don’t accept the very questionable exegesis of the Isaiah and Ezekiel passages. Those passages specifically state who is being described, granted in hyperbolic language as is common in prophetic passages.


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Todd

 2019/10/23 8:32Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1988
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

A few other clues we have...
Lucifer means "light bearer". In 2 Cor. 11:14 Paul calls him an angel of light.
Isaiah says that he weakened (brought to a prostrate position) the nations. John in Revelation 12:9 says that Satan deceived the nations.
Isaiah says he would be brought to hell, to the sides of the pit. Revelation 9 says he is in hell, in a bottomless pit.


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Travis

 2019/10/23 8:32Profile
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 Re:

“The exposition of this passage, which some have given, as if it referred to Satan, has arisen from ignorance: for the context plainly shows these statements must be understood in reference to the king of the Babylonians."~~John Calvin(wow, we agree on something!)

Martin Luther also considered it a gross error to refer this verse (Is 14:12) to the devil.


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Todd

 2019/10/23 9:57Profile
CalvaryCom
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Joined: 2007/9/29
Posts: 266
Greater NYC area

 Re:

John Calvin also had 32 people burned at the stake for disagreeing with his theology AFTER his alleged conversion.

Martin Luther denied the inspiration of entire books of the bible, more than a dozen, calling the epistle of James "a gospel of straw" & saying no one should read Revelation. He wrote the famously anti-semitic "On the Jews & Their Lies," and died hating these people. Hitler gleefully quoted Luther in Mein Kampf.

I do not look to Calvin or Luther for any Bible exposition.

As for Ezekiel 28, it is one of many Scripture passages that we call dual prophecy.

David's psalms about Ahithopel's betrayal of him anticipated Judas' betrayal of Christ a thousand years later.

"Out of Egypt I have called My son," speaks of the nation of Israel in Moses' day AND of Jesus' departure from Egypt in early childhood. There are many more such examples.


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Alec

 2019/10/23 10:28Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
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 Re:

//As for Ezekiel 28, it is one of many Scripture passages that we call dual prophecy.//

Who says?


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Todd

 2019/10/23 11:07Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1988
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

There are times in scripture when we find a person and the power at work in or behind that person mentioned together. For example, Jesus told Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan." We would never conclude from this passage that Peter is Satan. We conclude that there was a thought process and actions working through Peter that were not God's way of thinking, but the thoughts and emotions of a person that were still corrupted by sin (Satan). But then Jesus also deals with the physical man Peter.

The same is true in both OT passages that refer to Satan. For example, in Ezekiel 28, we read that Ezekiel is commanded to "say unto the prince of Tyrus. " This is about the real ruler of the physical Tyrus, and is very evident by the nature of what is said. But then God shifts focus. He then says, "take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus" . These verses then speak to the spiritual power, the real driving force, behind the king of Tyrus. In this case, it is describing Satan, and is also very clear in its description.

The same happens in Isaiah 14. God speaks against the king of Babylon. Not the physical ruler of the day, but the real power and motivator behind the empire and its deeds, in this case Satan again. Then he addresses what will happen to the physical nation of Babylon, the things that are in the physical realm that we would see.


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Travis

 2019/10/23 11:27Profile
TMK
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Posts: 5339
NC, USA

 Re:

But the verses mention nothing about a spiritual power. That interpretation is clearly coming from outside the text.

Some people don't want to see what the Bible actually says, if it is not going to support what popular teachers say. I have encountered this mentality an awful lot.

The question to ask is: “Who does the Bible say that Lucifer is?" There is only one place in the entire Bible that mentions "Lucifer," so it should be easy enough to consider all the biblical evidence. Comparing Isaiah 14:12 and v.16, we find that the only individual ever referred to as "Lucifer" is a "man" (not an angel) and, according to v. 4, he is the king of Babylon. Mystery solved!

It is also clear that the individual in Ezekiel 28 is not Lucifer, since Lucifer was "the king of Babylon," and the person in Ezekiel was "the king of Tyre" (28:12). There was not one individual who was both king of Babylon and of Tyre.

Of course, the popular view is that these both refer to Satan, as the "power behind the throne" in both Babylon and Tyre. However, there is nothing in either passage (nor elsewhere in scripture) to suggest this theory, which makes it, obviously, an "unscriptural" assumption.


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Todd

 2019/10/23 12:35Profile
CalvaryCom
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Joined: 2007/9/29
Posts: 266
Greater NYC area

 Re:

There are many other Bible theology websites with this same viewpoint and rationale:

http://www.goodseed.com/blog/2012/11/16/do-isaiah-14-and-ezekiel-28-speak-of-satan/


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Alec

 2019/10/24 18:38Profile





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