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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Any tips? Wolfs in Sheep Clothing

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 Re:

Thanks for clearing that up.

I don' think 'harsh words' are bad, because Christ said to be as 'shurd as serpents'. But if it is without love, that is 'too' harsh.

My 2 cents ;)

 2005/7/14 14:09
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re: Any tips? Wolfs in Sheep Clothing

A book by David Kirkwood called [url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0962962570/qid=1121364929/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-9400120-8836149?v=glance&s=books&n=507846]The Great Gospel Deception[/url] is another source I would recomend.


_________________
Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/7/14 14:17Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Here's the thing I've noticed with all of this. Many people sincerely think they are exposing error but really they are just spreading unsubstantiated and speculative junk based on thier interpretation of the Bible, false assumptions, and overgeneralizations.



I dont think thats true of most people on this site. I always back up my warnings with direct quotes from the teacher in question ... either from their sermons, books, interviews, etc. And I use sources that anyone on here can look up for themselves if they so chose to do so (and I recommend they do).

I never talk about their personal lives, with the exception of one time on here, and that was about a "prophet" who I have met personally who was caught in sexual sin (using his "ministry" to get sex) and he was right back out there "ministering". I knew the facts and backed them up.

You're correct that we should never go on false assumptions, and overgeneralizations, and I try my best to not do that. I'm not perfect, but I think if you scroll thru the old posts and threads, you will see I cover myself the best I can with facts.

I do not believe I've even once on here ever discussed Benny Hinn's lavish lifestyle. Joyce Meyer's lifestyle was discussed on here once (and I did not participate), but it was backed up by a 4 page newspaper article about her in her own local newspaper... and she granted the interviews, and supported the article.

I think you are overgeneralizing... be careful lest you be guilty of what you accuse others of.

Krispy

 2005/7/14 14:23









 Re:

Quote:
But in most cases I've found that there is very little actual proof of error.



Todd... I'm not trying to be antagonistic at all. Accept my words in the spirit in which they are meant, ok brother?

Anyway... name a teacher I have called a false teacher... and I'll give you proof.

BTW... a lot times proof has been given on here, but you need to go back thru several months of threads to find it. Sometimes there is no point in repeating something over and over again whenever a false teacher's name comes up. Lack of proof may just be a perception (assumption) on your part.

Krispy

 2005/7/14 14:27
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Krispy,

Quote:
"I dont think thats true of most people on this site. I always back up my warnings with direct quotes from the teacher in question."

I think you might have assumed I was talking about you! (Ok, ok, I admit you were floating around in my mind when I wrote the post). But really it was just some observations that I've noticed in general regarding these things, sometimes on this site but not that much anymore.

I've done all of those things I mentioned many times myself. I was the biggest critic of the Toronto Blessing, Latter Rain, Brownsville Revival, Laughing Revival, Prosperity Preachers, you name it- that I knew of at one time.

Then I started looking at things with love and especially how it is patient, kind, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness but rejoices with the truth, and especially how it hopes all things and believes all things. I realized that I had some kind of sick fascination and got some enjoyment out of focusing on other peoples problems. I think it distracted me from my own. I believed that it was mainly zeal for the truth, which I sincerely had, that led me to do what I did. But I discovered there was a lot more going on inside of me.

Perhaps this is not the case with you, but now you kind of know where I'm coming from. I am now very slow to conclude in these matters.

Because when I started looking at things with love, pretty soon everything started looking very different. That's not to say all of those things and the people involved in them are flawless, but they're not all bad either.

Quote:
"I always back up my warnings with direct quotes from the teacher in question ... either from their sermons, books, interviews, etc. And I use sources that anyone on here can look up for themselves if they so chose to do so (and I recommend they do)... I never talk about their personal lives, with the exception of one time on here..."

If all of that is true then that is admirable on your part. If this kind of thing is to be done, I think it should be done just like that. I can't verify if you have, indeed, held to that standard. But if you have, I applaud you.

Quote:
"I think you are overgeneralizing... be careful lest you be guilty of what you accuse others of."

You could be right, I hope not. I do receive that warning. God help me.

I just met someone a couple weeks ago on a fishing trip who admittedly was a "heresy-hunter." We ended up having a very interesting and good conversation about God and the things of God nonetheless. Every single person in the world has something valuable to give because they have lived a unique life and they have a unique perspective. I try to keep that in mind.

I will take you up on your challenge, though I think we might have different views of what a false teacher and a false prophet are. Do you think someone is a false teacher or a false prophet if they have taught or prophecied some things false but had good motives?

I would be interesting in looking deeper into your claims of Osteen being a false teacher, since that one is fresh in our minds and I know very little about the man and his ministry. That should be interesting. But I think we should start a new thread if we're going to do it.

And I am only willing to engage you in a discussion like this under the following conditions:

1. The "proof" you use must be accessible and available to look at in context. Your response seems to indicate you already recognize the importance of that.

2. We stay focused on one thing at a time. For example, if you have a quotation or evidence that you feel proves a teacher to be false, we stay with that piece of evidence unitl it is exhausted before moving on to another.

3. You don't just copy large amounts of information and give links to articles and other information. If you feel something is relevant, copy and comment on the specific part you think is relevant. This will minimize any potential overgeneralizing.

4. If you are using Scripture to support your position, state plainly the connection- don't just flash a verse. You know what I mean?

If you agree to all that and you still want to have a discussion like this, go ahead and start it up on a new thread. It could be fruitful for us.

Quote:
" BTW... a lot times proof has been given on here, but you need to go back thru several months of threads to find it. Sometimes there is no point in repeating something over and over again whenever a false teacher's name comes up. Lack of proof may just be a perception (assumption) on your part."

Good point. But let's not make such assumptions on this new thread. As it stands, Osteen's ministry has a big question mark (?) over it in my mind, not and x.

 2005/7/14 15:38Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Actually I just changed my mind. I would rather look into Rodney Howard-Browne's teachings (or more specifically your claims of him being a false teacher) if you are willing. I know more about him than Osteen, but I wouldn't say I know a lot.

 2005/7/14 15:45Profile









 Re:

Very gracious response to my post, Todd. I'm glad you received my words in the way I intended them to be received, and not misinterpret my spirit in this. (That doesn't happen often!)

I don't have time to address everything... but there is a prevailing attitude that has crept into the church that says "Love means we don't confront... but accept". I reject that notion. We should confront deception when we see or hear it. It needs to be done with love, meaning our motivation needs to be godly. We should want to confront it because it tears our soul out to see people deceived. I was deceived about many things as a new believer, and perhaps that explains my utter distaste for deception. It's a sinking feeling when you see you've allowed yourself to believe lies.

Thank God someone had the guts to confront me about what I believed, and had the guts to speak out agaisnt those leaders I was following. Otherwise... who knows where I'd be.

Love is NOT [b]tolerance[/b] of error. Nor does love enjoy exposing error, but it does so because of the heart wrenching fact that many will stand before Him thinking they were believers... but they were deceived and believed another gospel.

I've been to Toronto, Brownsville... etc etc... we wrestle not against flesh and blood. They are not bad people... but they [b]are[/b] deceived people who are deceiving tens of thousands... and they need to be confronted and rebuked. The end goal should be to see them come to the truth of scripture.

Please please please, Todd... get the book "Who Are You To Judge?"

Krispy

 2005/7/14 16:07









 Re:

Quote:
Actually I just changed my mind. I would rather look into Rodney Howard-Browne's teachings (or more specifically your claims of him being a false teacher) if you are willing. I know more about him than Osteen, but I wouldn't say I know a lot.



Patience... I'm running low on time today. I'm about to log off for the day, lots going on this afternoon. I'll get back to you on this tomorrow.

Krispy

 2005/7/14 16:09





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