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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Any tips? Wolfs in Sheep Clothing

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aeryck
Member



Joined: 2005/1/11
Posts: 234
United Kingdom

 Wolves in Sheeps Clothing

Todd,

I agree Derek was a really wonderful human, I have a tape where he was preaching in New Zealand where he began weeping over them.

Derek was extremly positive, and would rather teach about a problem and then invest much time in dealing with a solution.

I have a huge library of his books and tapes and Cd's, and so far I have found he talks about a general problem and avoids the names, concentrating on providing scriptural solutions.

He said something quite funny once. 'Often those who talk most about grace, know very little about it.'

I learned the first principles of the doctrine of Christ, from his notes in 1977. This really helped me to identify a false cult very quickly.
When you have the blue print it is easy to notice a fake.

Even on one occassion he mentioned Willian Marion Brahnam. Now even though WMB is 'Jesus only' all Derek said was, he was amazed at the way William stood praying for hours for thousands of sick people. He even debated Chuck Missler and humbly acknowledged Missler's views on the Rapture.

I think what has marked Derek's ministry was his humble spirit in God. At 83, he felt there were things in his life that need tending and drew aside to pray and seek the Lord for 2 weeks.

In Jesus,
Triangulation.

ps. hope I did not punch this section too hard. Seems there is a light hearted spirit hear, right?
:-P


_________________
Eric John Sawyer

 2005/7/13 17:18Profile









 Re:


ccchhhrrriiisss

Your quote about 'not knowing a wolf in sheeps clothing' Honestly, those that you mentioned are, they are either wolfs/goats or sheep. Rodney is truly a wolf, maybe he once 'tasted the divine nature', i dont know, i read one of his books 'The Touch of God' (This is truly what i believe, what he (rodney) wrote in this book). I believe the book was right on the money, has he changed? maybe, maybe not i dont know. All i know is the present. He is not teaching the word of God, but doctrines of DEMONS! Not even of man, DEMONS I SAY.

I love Rodney, just as i love a homosexual, Adolf Hitler, and a homeless man on the street. But if ANYONE preaches in the name of Christ, and fails the test and isn't willing to come forward with open arms saying 'Sorry folks, etc..etc..' or 'Here are all the accounts i have of healings and truth...' Then that man is hiding something. Did any man/women of God hide something? I doubt it.

This is part, that i believe is PART of the Great Delusion, and the other part is the pre trib rapture (lets keep this outta this thread, cause its not part of this topic).

I don't believe your pastor is ALL (maybe some, but not all) wrong on his situation with 'casting lots' the apostles did, maybe they drawed straws as one pastor put it, or maybe they did what your pastor did.

I think either your pastor is just desperate for a true genuine touch of God. To hear His voice. But i dont believe its wrong to 'cast lots' when the motives are correct.


Todd

I do believe someone is probly called to 'major' on this topic. Why? cause there are different parts of the body and different funtions.

Krispy Krittr

Judging isn't bad. Mean spirited? Actually, im truly learning alot. That's fruit in my life. Judgemental? Well, Jesus never said 'Judging is bad' instead 'you will be judged in the same manner'. And hey, i dont think anyone here minds being judged in the same manner we are judging others.

Lots of money, covetess motives....worshipping the gift and not the giver. If im classified as these, then i will truly be under judgement by the people and the Lord.

Also, the bible says to 'mark the false ones and stay away from them'. (thats a paraphrase..of i think two different scriptures)

So, i believe there is tremendous fruit coming from this conversation. And it has truly lifted me up. Any more comments folks?

 2005/7/13 17:34









 Re:

aerky, can you name some of Derek's stuff on 'marking a cult' or something of that nature?? so that in the future i maybe able to buy it...and dwell on these things..

 2005/7/13 17:36
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi Todd...

Yes, this happened in a church that I used to attend. Those who quietly professed "faking" their holy laughter didn't admit this is front of the entire congregation -- because this rather large Church still stands behind these men (as well as some other extremely controversial guest ministers).

The "holy laughter" movement in this particular church lasted for several years, and still exists in a somewhat more subdued version. Usually, it occurs within a particular small group of ladies in the congregation, who begin laughing uncontrollably during the sermon.

For the first six months or so, the Pastor and some leaders in the Church loved it! However, after a while, it became very disruptive. For a while, it seemed that the ushers were forced to [u]carry[/u] out the same ladies nearly every service to prevent further disruption of the service. However, the women would be carried to a room in the building where they were permitted to laugh and roll on the floor all they wanted.

Eventually, other guest speakers commented negatively about such disruptions, but it still continued. A couple of times, some guest speakers were forced to ask some of the "Holy Ghost drunks" (as they became known) to be quiet during some services. The senior pastor was perplexed, because many people in the congregation grew impatient about the entire notion. He eventually had to say something from the pulpit, telling people that while he totally believes in "holy laughter," that it should happen with "decency and order" and not to take preeminence over the service every week.

According to friends of mine that still attend the church, those same ladies experience "holy laughter" manifestations at least twice a month on Sunday mornings. While the pastor still defends it and vigorously forbids people from questioning the manifestations (or his leadership in allowing such things), the movement is hardly mentioned anymore. For a while, the church experimented with television, and the main TV ministry guy told me that he was told to not film the manifestation, and to edit out any inadvertant displays.

Most of the people who spoke about having "faked" the manifestation still attend the church. I no longer attend that church, but I remain in contact with several of them. If you would like, I could ask them to contact you.

I have asked some of them why they faked the manifestation, but most of them really don't have an answer. Some told me that they felt pressured to, while others didn't want to feel like they were [i]unspiritual[/i] for not falling down, laughing, etc... (since so many others were doing the same). I have often wondered why people feel the need to do that in many of today's modern charasmatic churches. I've watched Christian TV shows where thousands did this at the same time. I've even attended services where people experienced holy laughter, only to get up a couple of minutes later and invite me to eat (and even to watch a movie after the service).

Like I said in my first post, I don't want to appear judgmental. I have seen some amazing things. And nothing changes the fact that God can do abundantly more than we ask or think. But as I said before, there are some things that God [i]will not do[/i] because it is against his character (as found in the Word). Again, I have seen some awesome things that God has done since becoming a christian. But I have also seen some things that were attributed to God that contradicts his Word.

Anyway, PM me if you would like for me to place you in contact with some of these.

:-)
-Chris
Jeremiah 29:11-13

Quote:

todd wrote:

You wrote:
"Most people eventually fell down and laughed uncontrollably, but many later admitted that they did it because they felt pressured to."

Were these people in your church? Did they admit this in front of the church? Is there any way to contact them?


_________________
Christopher

 2005/7/13 17:45Profile
aeryck
Member



Joined: 2005/1/11
Posts: 234
United Kingdom

 Re: Sound Teaching exposes Wolves

Todd,

Sound teaching is often the secret to dealing with the type of things I see mentioned on this thread, nothing that a little water of the Word won't do to cool of fakes.

Paul, does clearly outline correct order in the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Laughter is not out of order, as is crying. I remember once listening to a woman sobbing gently in the Holy Spirit, it touched me so deeply that I began crying too, I just realized at that moment that Jesus was weeping through her. Wow, where did that come from.

In Jesus,
.A.
:-P

ps. I will certainly let you know as soon as I remember. 'Blessing or Curse'- You can choose, is the only one that comes to mind, and another where he dealt with a 'bewitched' church, I think it was his teaching on the book of Galatians. His tape library is extensive. I mean literally thousands of hours of ministry. I prefer Chuck Missler when I am not reading Paul...lol

add-
Come to think of it the real boffin in exposing cults is Dr Walter Martin, and Al Dager. More recently is a guy called Warren Smith, not to be confused with Rick Warren. Dr Walter Martin is really thorough. Whew, he sweeps clean. He has a two books, Kingdom of the Cults and Kingdom of the Occult. Pricey but worth it, I believe recommended reading for some colleges. Chuck Missler actually toured with the late Doctor. He was amazed at the mans commitment to caring for people who were troubled.

Often the best way of examining a cult is to look for testimonies of poeple who have been involved, I was more moved by the testimonies of ex jehovah's witnesses than anything I have ever read in the manuals about the cults, it also gave me a proper understanding. I now cannot wait to hear the knock on my door and make them tea and love them as much as I know how in the Lord. They live lives of such terrible fear. I had no idea till I listened to a testimony. Mp3 audios are so cool... :-P try http://www.waltermartin.org


_________________
Eric John Sawyer

 2005/7/13 18:13Profile









 Re:

Here is a personal question for all of you.

Does it break your heart when you see, hear, and experience false manifestations and teachings? Does it break your heart when someone walks away when someone is NOT healed? I wanna weap for hours. God has been breaking me resently. I've heard many different prophetic words...and such, but still waiting on the Lord. When God opens the door (for TIME, cause right now salvation of the youth is my #1 priority) i will be running thru it.

It truly breaks my heart, to see people down the street, in pain, to see people in schools hurting in their souls, to see them dead spiritual.

It hurts, its something i truly would ask Christ for more of, is compassion.

So again, my question.

Does it break your heart when you see, hear, and experience false manifestations and teachings? Does it break your heart when someone walks away when someone is NOT healed?

 2005/7/14 0:15
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Quote:
Does it break your heart when you see, hear, and experience false manifestations and teachings? Does it break your heart when someone walks away when someone is NOT healed?



It breaks my heart when someone who is not physically healed thinks it's that way because their faith is lacking somewhere.


_________________
Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/7/14 0:29Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Krispy Krittr

Judging isn't bad. Mean spirited? Actually, im truly learning alot. That's fruit in my life. Judgemental? Well, Jesus never said 'Judging is bad' instead 'you will be judged in the same manner'. And hey, i dont think anyone here minds being judged in the same manner we are judging others.

Lots of money, covetess motives....worshipping the gift and not the giver. If im classified as these, then i will truly be under judgement by the people and the Lord.

Also, the bible says to 'mark the false ones and stay away from them'. (thats a paraphrase..of i think two different scriptures)



Ahhh... young Jedi... you must be new here!

When someone uses the expression "tongue in cheek" they mean that what they said was not meant to be taken seriously. I have oft times come on this site and warned of a doctrine or teacher... and I get called names and my motivations and heart get judged by those who say I am judgemental... you should go back thru the archives here and you will see that you misunderstood my earlier post on this thread.

I have merely stayed on the side lines on this topic because you're all handling it quite well... and it should be obvious to anyone with even a minimal amount of familiarity with the Bible that Rodney Howard-Brown is a false teacher on par with Benny Hinn.

Krispy

 2005/7/14 5:56









 Re:

Let me also clarify that at times my words about false teachers have been perceived as harsh... and at times I have to admit that they have been. And some here have challenged me on that, and they are correct to do so. It's not in my heart to be harsh, but sometimes I need to choose my words more wisely. I am learning to season my words with more grace.

What I reject is the notion that we should overlook error in the name of unity. Jesus never taught this... and Paul certainly did not. We can never have unity with untruth. Unity based on tolerance of error is not biblical unity... it is, according to scripture, partaking in the the error.

Exposing error, and warning of it with a godly attitude, is love.

Krispy

 2005/7/14 8:08
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Here's the thing I've noticed with all of this. Many people sincerely think they are exposing error but really they are just spreading unsubstantiated and speculative junk based on thier interpretation of the Bible, false assumptions, and overgeneralizations.

I think that every single time I've looked deeper into some of these things, that I've tried to actually get to the root source, I've come away with a very different understanding of the situation. Either I totally disagree with the "error-finders" assessment of the situation, or I see it is a very different light than they expressed it.

I'm not saying that none of these folks have ever made a real mistake or that all their doctrine is flawless. But I've noticed people are far too ready to jump to conclusions, especially when they already have a major bias.

But in most cases I've found that there is very little actual proof of error. It takes time and patience to really assess these kinds of things.

 2005/7/14 14:08Profile





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