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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Torment...not Pain

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CalvaryCom
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Joined: 2007/9/29
Posts: 266
Greater NYC area

 Re:

I don't believe the 99% - 1% per cent ratio is accurate, Todd. Yes, the Lord has preserved for Himself a righteous remnant. Perhaps a true reckoning is paralleled here: "And it shall come to pass that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die, but the third part shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They will call on My name, and I will hear them. I will say, It is My people, and they shall say, The Lord is my God." Zechariah 13:8,9

Finally, the Lord created Adam in His own image. Man was born into the image of Adam after he had fallen into sin. Through Jesus "the last Adam" many have come to salvation instead of dying in sin and going to hell. I do not for a second believe that God would have accepted the sacrifices and rituals of the Old Covenant if He had not already had in mind the New. After all, Jesus is referred to as "the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world." He took the Old Covenant saints out of paradise/the bosom of Abraham and brought them to (the third) heaven when He rose from the dead.


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Alec

 2019/10/11 16:22Profile
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1230
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: wow

Dear brother,
Not sure what’s going on but,...
let’s take these 1 by 1 -

You wrote; “ he knew in advance that everyone would sin but He created them anyway”
“ he knew that a huge majority would never have a realistic chance of responding to the gospel,”
“ and that an exceedingly small percentage of those who do hear would respond favorably, yet He created a special place of never ending torture for the vast majority of his creation that He knew in advance would have to go there because of the system HE created.”

You then, rightly, state that would be a form of insanity IF it were true....

So may I ask you dear brother to provide scriptures for the three above presuppositions quotes above?
That would provide a basis for us to discuss the facts without all the emotional conjecture:)


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Fletcher

 2019/10/11 16:25Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5339
NC, USA

 Re:

You don’t really need the fluff- all that’s needed is the premise that 1) God created the system (if not Him, then who?), and the premise 2) that He created a place of eternal torture to house those who failed in the system He created. Regardless what percentage you think is accurate, I think the consensus would be that far far far more people fail than not in this system.

I don’t have a problem at all with premise 1- it’s premise 2 that gives me pause. Why it doesn’t give everybody pause is beyond me.


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Todd

 2019/10/11 16:55Profile
CofG
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 381
Cambodia

 Re:

Hi Todd. Just a query. Do you have problem with the premise that God creatied a hell to send Satan and the fallen angels to?


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Robert

 2019/10/11 17:34Profile
CalvaryCom
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Joined: 2007/9/29
Posts: 266
Greater NYC area

 Re:

Well, I'm glad for your honest and transparent conversation, Todd. There are many people who have taken issue with what you call premise 2 over the years. Some have ended up disbelieving the inerrancy of Scripture, or have come up with their own doctrines that hell is not a place of eternal punishment, but that the penitent can leave there. However, the Bible does not say that.

I believe that after we die we are outside of time as we know it: our spirits are in a permanent "I am" situation - whether that is "I am in heaven" or "I am in hell" depends upon whether the individual were bought with the precious blood of Christ or not. On my own I would surely be driven from God's holy presence, just as Adam and Eve were driven from the garden of Eden, and a cherub with a flaming sword preventing them from entering. But in Christ I am accepted by the Father, washed in the water of the Word, and filled with His Spirit. My spirit is revived, and I have an imputed righteousness by His amazing grace.


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Alec

 2019/10/11 17:36Profile
drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 644
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Todd, no offense but it's pretty easy to poke holes in your argument.

Read Romans 1. People know instinctively and from their God given conscience that there is a God. They suppress the truth in unrighteousness. The whole world is in darkness and rebellion against God; they aren't people who have made a few mistakes but are basically good, and are sent to hell by a bloodthirsty, tyrannical God.

God has given people free will, and if the majority of the human race stubbornly refuse to give up their sin and choose to go to hell, God has to let them.

I recommend you listen to Ten Shekels And A Shirt by Paris Reidhead. "It wasn't trying to convince good man that he was in trouble with a bad God; it was to convince bad men that they deserved the wrath and anger of a good God."

Read these words directly from the mouth of Jesus: "Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." Luke 13:23,24


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Nigel Holland

 2019/10/11 17:56Profile
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1230
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Todd

You wrote; “ You don’t really need the fluff- all that’s needed is the premise”

Are you suggesting that the scriptures themselves as a basis is “fluff”???
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your words? But it seems you begin with a premise that may not have a firm footing in the scriptures themselves.

It’s clear from your posts over the years that you’re view of this topic is somewhat nuanced in that it isn’t a “traditional” position but it seems for some reason now there is a hostility, even a contemptuous position of intolerance for what the scriptures clearly and plainly state.... Our unwillingness to accept them doesn’t negate the them or the position they present.

Might I ask if there is a personal reason you reject this doctrine? Perhaps like Francis Chan, someone close to you whom you loved and was a “good” person died apart from Christ? And it just doesn’t seem fair or just?



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Fletcher

 2019/10/11 18:24Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
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NC, USA

 Re:

No Fletcher- my position has not changed at all. My official position is that I do not know what the final fate of the wicked is. I believe there are 3 positions that can be amply supported by scripture if they are given honest consideration. The vast majority of evangelical Christians refuse to give honest consideration to two of these possibilities but fall all over the third. And when I say “honest consideration” I don’t mean reading a proponent of one view tearing apart the others. You have to read the best defenses of each position from respectable persons who hold them. I have certainly done so which is why I can honestly say that I do not know which view is correct.

I am not hostile toward any scripture, but perhaps as I grow older I do get impatient with those who say they love God with all their hearts but are so willing to lay the most horrible and monstrous things at His doorstep without a second thought. I suspect one day people will hear from the Lord: “How could you have thought that about Me?” That being said, I may hear: “How could you not have believed that about Me?” Of course I think that is much less likely 🙂


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Todd

 2019/10/11 20:30Profile
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 381
Cambodia

 Re:

Todd. Ito suggest that the “ 3rfd view” is monstrous, insane and represents an evil God is not an “I don’t know” attitude and is more than mere impatience. with those who hold to it. Finally, if the 3rd view is true, saying those things aboht God is “problematic”.


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Robert

 2019/10/11 22:22Profile
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1230
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Fair enough- and that’s an understandable position.
But isn’t it a measure of maturity to allow others to express and discuss their understanding of scripture and or doctrine without being swiped at? Especially so long as they’re not “teaching error” and are expressing a heart of humility to reach the lost?
Idk bro, it seems to me that we should do as Paul says and “strive to maintain unity” and not squabble over things that again, wether we agree with their conclusions or not, are pretty consistent in the scriptures.

I mean it’s pretty hard to argue with passages like, “knowing the terror of the Lord we persuade men” and “how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation” and “if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the sinner and ungodly appear” just to name a few of the new covenant passages that seem to clearly express there is a severity to Gods wrath that is, according to scripture, impartial and without respect of persons.

Regarding sister Enid’s initial post, (in my understanding) if Lord Jesus uses actual peoples names then it’s a historical event and not a figurative parable... as in this case He was siting an actual scenario that happened-

Regarding the “premises” you sited,... honestly I think we all eventually get confronted by these types of questions especially relating to these most serious and sobering subjects found in our faith... resulting, in many cases, with us coming to very different conclusions. In many cases these conclusions are being informed more by our experience and culture rather than the Spirit of truth. When I searched the scriptures as to how to responsibly handle this fact it was very clear- approach the subject and brethren with all meekness and humility. I can’t say sister Enid is right or wrong in her understanding of this subject but it seems apparent that her heart has been pricked by her understanding of this subject and this has resulted in her having a desire to reach the lost.... and that looks like how the Jesus that saved me works in the hearts of those whom He has already redeemed and are being saved🙏🏻

In any case, tho we may have different understanding of this doctrine, I love you and am grateful for how God has used you to help me in my walk over the years cause you might be surprised how big of an influence you’ve been in my life <\\\><


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Fletcher

 2019/10/11 22:47Profile





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