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JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1244
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: Brother Greg

As stated in the initial post, the Lord will not (yet) allow me to pluck or cut down these tares- tho I have petitioned Him since the beginning of this thread...
After your response, instructing me to take it to task, I again petitioned the Lord and His response has not changed but to say there is no scriptural precedent requiring (or instructing) is to “pick apart” a deception piece by piece in order to expose it, simply pointing it out and warning the body of believers is our work,... it is the work of the Holy Spirit to cut away and He is really good at being God and doesn’t need me to do His job for Him-

This is what He allows me to respond with -


1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec


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Fletcher

 2019/9/19 21:54Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

Greg-

How about this for starters:

//Many belivers act like Cain because they attempt to connect with God by their own labor, a relationship based on "hear and obey." They believe that they should rule over sin and subdue it but living by these words IS the cause of sin in the human.

When a person attempts to relate with God on the basis of not sinning by the knowledge of what God expects, that belief results ONLY in sin and death. "Not sinning" causes sin; it causes both good and evil, both of which are sin. Doing good is as sinful as doing evil, oftentimes more sinful, for the one "doing good" is building his or her own self-righteousness, his or her own claim on God - that is, covenant - because I did, then You must.

The fear of sin causes sin, drawing sin out of self and others//

I am in 100% agreement with Fletcher on this. The danger of this deception is its subtlety and it seems to offer some nebulous solution to the problem of sin by suggesting that if you simply accept that we are one with Christ then the victory is won. That is a bunch of nonsense and runs contrary to the many many warnings and admonitions in the NT.


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Todd

 2019/9/20 7:01Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 636
Australia

 Re: TMK

Todd,

I am not commenting on what Vern wrote but on what you wrote:

Quote:
I am in 100% agreement with Fletcher on this. The danger of this deception is its subtlety and it seems to offer some nebulous solution to the problem of sin by suggesting that if you simply accept that we are one with Christ then the victory is won. That is a bunch of nonsense and runs contrary to the many many warnings and admonitions in the NT.




Jesus said: “"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”

I ask you:

Can the branch which is one with the vine produce any fruit that is not the fruit of the vine?

Can anyone apart from Christ do any good work?

Is anyone apart from Christ accepted by God?



ADD:

Jesus said:

John 17:23 (YLT) –
I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me.

But you cannot accept this truth of Christ in us.

I cannot change your mind and your hostility to those who believe this.

I can only quote what Gamaliel said:

Acts 5:38-39 –
“………for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God."



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Jade

 2019/9/20 8:53Profile
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Joined: 2018/9/6
Posts: 220


 Cain's rejection

Did not Cain expect to to be blessed by God? He had toiled, worked and sweated for hours, days and weeks before binging the fruit of his labor to God. Did he not kill Abel because he thought that he had worked harder than Abel but God rejected his offering while accepting Abel's?

Cain's offering was not accepted because of his lack of faith. He thought by the works of his hands and all his own efforts he could please God.

The best example of a person who tried to deal with his sin by trying not to sin was Hudson Taylor.

Read this for yourself for it says everything that I said in that post I made.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=27359&forum=34


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Vern

 2019/9/20 11:29Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re: Cain's rejection

Jade-

I do not reject that Christ is in us, the hope of glory. This is clearly taught in the NT.

But the idea that if we somehow just **really** accept this we will be hunky dory is just not true. How do you “really” accept something? You either do or you don’t.

But that does not mean that we can just fail to heed all the admonitions in the NT. Should I list them out here?


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Todd

 2019/9/20 20:11Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 636
Australia

 Re:

Todd,

You say that you do not reject that Christ is in us. So, WHAT does Christ in you do for you?

I won't squabble about "'really' accepting" -- whatever you are trying to say. What is the use of quarrelling about words. It is life and truth we want. So, is Christ in you TRUTH in you? Of what use are mere head knowledge and mental assent? HOW does Christ in us become TRUTH in us?

Of course we need to heed all the admonitions in the NT. HOW do you do that? HOW do you obey all the commands in the NT? And how successful have you been? HOW do you become holy as God is holy? HOW do we become perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect?: Remember, we do not want white-washed tombs, beautiful on the outside but full of dead men's bones and uncleanness inside. We want holiness that PERFECTLY matches the holiness of Christ. We want the life that is of EXACTLY the same power and fullness and goodness of Christ. God's standard is "more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think" (Eph. 3:20). Yes, please tell me HOW.


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Jade

 2019/9/21 4:45Profile
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Joined: 2018/9/6
Posts: 220


 Re: Hunky dory

I never said that all will be hunky dory.

Did you read the letter that Hudson Taylor wrote to his sister? Here is a real Christian who was a successful missionary living in China with many converts but was battling sin in his own life.

I also spent much time, effort, energy, prayer, and seeking to find true freedom from sin in my life. After countless defeats and failures I found what Hudson Taylor found.
--------------------------------------
"The Spirit of God revealed the truth of our oneness with Jesus as I had never known it before."

"But how is faith strengthened? Not by striving after faith, but by resting on the Faithful One.

As I read I saw it all! If we believe not, He abideth faithful. I looked to Jesus and saw (and when I saw, oh, how joy flowed!) that He said, I will never leave you. Ah, there is rest! I thought. I have striven in vain to rest in Him. I'll strive no more. For has He not promised to abide with me - never to leave me, never to fail me? And, dearie, He never will!"
--------------------------------------------
Why not make a list of the things he did in the attempt to find true freedom.

There are people here on SI who are struggling with sin but have not yet found the freedom in Christ that He offers.

There is a rest for us to enter and enjoy. There is TRUE freedom from sin here and now. Living a holy life is possible.

Hudson's friend, McCarthy had written a letter to him that really helped.

I pray that my posts can help someone who is struggling with sin to see the same thing!


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Vern

 2019/9/21 4:56Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
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 Re:

// pray that my posts can help someone who is struggling with sin to see the same thing!//

But your posts provide no practical suggestions at all!

They basically say if you find “the secret” you will no longer struggle with sin. It’s like an infomercial come-on.

How does a person “rest on the Faithful One” if they believe they already are doing so?


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Todd

 2019/9/21 8:13Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 636
Australia

 Re:

Quote:
But your posts provide no practical suggestions at all!



Are you looking for a “How To” method and a list of “Things to Do”?

Jesus says: “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”

Jesus Himself, and alone, is that Narrow Path. Please do not add other things and other requirements to Jesus Himself and Jesus Only. There is no salvation in the Broad Way.

Quote:
How does a person “rest on the Faithful One” if they believe they already are doing so?



If you are already resting on Jesus, why are you asking for “practical suggestions”?


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Jade

 2019/9/21 9:25Profile
davidkeel
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Joined: 2006/5/11
Posts: 410
West Sussex, England

 Re:

There are a few things in the original post that we need to be careful about. The article that was originally posted was concerning striving to be good or to appear to be good. This is different from the Biblical truth of the subject of repentance which Vern has claimed Derek Prince to be talking about. But he isn't. In fact Derek Prince whole heartedly believed in true repentance.

This is just one of the subtleties that continually happen with these posts. Most probably due to a lack of real knowledge of the topic of repentance and dying to self through self denial. And believing the people who practice it aren't enlightened to the truth. It's dangerous for those who can't see what is happening. And they can be led into a life of disillusionment. When the Holy Spirit is convicting us of one thing but we have these messages telling us not to put any effort into repentance .

I don't mind anyone talking about the change that can happen through resting in God's provision of grace but this goes far and above the Biblical teaching and is hyper grace teaching.

Because it does away with the life of over coming that Christ called us to in Revelation chapter 3 for example. And also where we are called to put to death whatever belongs to our earthly nature.

This grace teaching is one of ease. But there are times we will be called to enter into a life of greater obedience and maturity and single mindedness in leaving this world behind to follow Christ.. we then have to guard our mind.

We need to be aware that continually believing that grace will change our whole personality inside out and will eventually do away with all of our deepest sins, can and will lead us into a spiritual Coma. Of which most will never see the fallacy of for the rest of their life on earth. They are so trained by the deception of the total emphasis of this as the only thing necessary and claiming that this is the only thing we are called to.

Christ never taught this way of grace as a means to over come anywhere in the Gospels. Much rather he taught the higher calling of self denial. And of stopping sinning.

Paul continued this when the person caught in fornication in the church at Corinth was not given this grace teaching as the way they should change, but were prevented from fellowship until they repented.

I don't mean to sound unmerciful. Just trying to point out that the teaching of grace as the only entrance to do away with everything wrong with our walk isn't the only way things are taught in the Bible.

Cain was mentioned by Vern too. The real story of this was of the Lord confronting Cain after he had murdered Abel and telling him that sin was crouching at his door. Saying "sin desires to have you but you must rule over it"

The same Lord Jesus tells us to do the same thing in various stories in the new testament.
So the teaching has never gone away.

Beware of what Christendom in our present evil age is trying to do to the church. It will take away our feelings of accountability and teach us to refuse the conviction of God and prevent us entering into true repentance. It will lead you along dark paths.





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David Keel

 2019/9/22 6:50Profile





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