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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Forgiveness... your thoughts

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 Re: Forgiveness... your thoughts

I found this a couple weeks ago when I was doing some research on the church in the Solomon Islands, (Guadalcanal....ooorah) there's been terrible ethnic strife over there, murderous and barbarous....this guy Mark Hurst spoke of the myths of forgiveness, I'll paste them and paste the URL of the page::

Myth 1: Forgiving means forgetting. The reality is that remembering is essential for forgiveness.

Myth 2: Forgiving means accepting the offence. The reality is that naming the offence is sinful and unacceptable is essential to forgiveness.

Myth 3: Forgiving is automatic. The reality is that anger, hatred, and bitterness follow naturally from an offence.

Myth 4: Forgiving is quick and a one-time event. The reality is that forgiveness is a process.

Myth 5: Forgiving means the relationship is reconciled. The reality is that forgiveness does not equal reconciliation. Forgiveness is part of peace building that allows us to break the chains of the past and enter into a new, more hopeful future


http://www.pacificwacc.org/toforgive.htm

 2005/7/11 18:16









 Re:

Hey Neil...

Dispite all of our differences, there are times when I could just kiss you. (On the cheek of course!)

That was awesome, and so very true, and I thank you for sharing that, brother.

Krispy

 2005/7/12 6:18









 Re:

Quote:
Biblically, forgiveness is always with reconciliation in view.



I've contemplated on what Philologos posted yesterday... and I think if we couple together what Neil posted, and what Philologos posted... we have something real. Forgiveness is a process that we need to work thru. When someone gets burned bad by someone, because we are human, forgiveness is not something we can do automatically... not in our flesh anyway. Actually, in our flesh godly forgiveness is impossible.

But we do need to come to a point where we "decide not to remember". Kind of like when we decided to repent. There are a lot of decisions to be made in this walk we walk call Christianity. I think too many times we think God is gonna do it all for us. No... but He will help us. Praise God.

Krispy

 2005/7/12 6:25
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Neilgin wrote

Quote:
this guy Mark Hurst spoke of the myths of forgiveness, I'll paste them and paste the URL of the page::


This is the other side of the coin but absolutely right too. This basis would prevent what I shared becoming a nice theory. Thanks Neil, this is good stuff; its gone straight into my notebook. :-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/12 6:55Profile
ellie
Member



Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 189
UK

 Re: not in our flesh anyway.

hello, KrispyKrittr my friend.


"forgiveness is not something we can do automatically... not in our flesh anyway. Actually, in our flesh godly forgiveness is impossible."


[color=CC0000][font=Georgia]not in our flesh anyway.
Actually, in our flesh godly forgiveness is impossible." [/font][/color]

What does this mean?

having in mind that my ex husband has caused me extreme suffering for 20 yrs. And treats our adult children in a cruel manner. They yearn for his love which he does not give and he plays each one against the other. Likened to a human game playing. These are my children also and I have never been able to intervene, because of his lies.

He even managed 5years ago to have me Bannished from my Eldest Sons wedding. I was aloud to go to the church so I did see the Wedding and I stood with God at the back of the church and he covered me so much that I did not feel the humiliation in front of people I knew. (My brother and mother were with me)My Eldest Son who became estranged from me when I left the Marital home 15years ago. He has been seeing some truths about his dad and my son has let me have my Grandaughter twice a week, since she was born. He finds it difficult to let me into his life. He speaks a bit more to me now and I patiently wait on God for good outcomes for all my Children. "God in their lives. I live in hope."
And so I have had to continually let go of my unforgivness toward my ex. But have always been told I have to forgive. Which I have asked Jesus to help me to do, through the years.
To entertain speaking to him and being friendly is out of the question. I would not invite him to my table. There are further, very strong reasons why.

ellie

 2005/7/12 7:18Profile









 Re:

[b][color=CC0000]not in our flesh anyway. Actually, in our flesh godly forgiveness is impossible. [/color][/b]

I can do all things thru Christ who strengthens me... the flip side is that without Him I can do nothing.

Thats what it means... it's as simple as that.

Krispy

 2005/7/12 8:18
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I see in ellie's post a good question here. What are we to do when a person is persistent in offending with a high hand? What if they never turn and say to us "I repent." What if they say- "I'm going to keep driving my daggar in and if you don't like it- you can lump it. And as a matter of fact- I don't want your forgiveness!" What then?

Alexander the Coppersmith was such an one. Paul said he "done me much evil." Interesting is his reply. Steven cried out "lay not this sin to their account" (Acts 7), yet Paul writes "... the Lord reward him according to his works." By tradition we could say that it is among the last words he ever penned. he ended the whole of his volumous works with that statement just a few verses from the end.

What is the difference between the situation with Paul and the situation with Stephen? Had Alexander the Coppersmith highhandedly sinned until he reached the place where John said "I do not say that he shall pray for it..."?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/7/12 9:08Profile
ellie
Member



Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 189
UK

 Re: not in our flesh anyway. Actually, in our flesh godly forgiveness is impossible.

I have been looking at your reply and looked again and again puzzled and then suddenly,
(I don't know if you know this saying),
The penny dropped. And I went, right.. I see it.

I now understand Praise God....

And this next one.

I can do all things thru Christ who strengthens me... the flip side is that without Him I can do nothing.
I live it every day.

Thankyou

ellie

 2005/7/12 11:39Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I think also it would be wise to consider the difference between those who are Children of God and those who are still in Sin. Some passages on forgiveness:

Matthew 15:16

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: [u]if[/u] he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16 But [u]if he will not hear thee[/u], then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And [u]if he shall neglect to hear them[/u], tell it unto the church: but [u]if he neglect to hear the church,[/u] let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye [u]from your hearts[/u] forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

I notice "from your hearts" in these last verses. I recall a passage from Hebrews referring to a "root of bitterness springing up troubling you and thereby many be defiled." I suppose that 'bitterness' could refer to any number of soul poisoning things- but bitterness against a person is real estate for the enemy to build a stronghold.

Let not the sun go down upon your wrath, neither give "place" (topos) to the Devil. When we go to bed with our wrath the enemy takes up some real estate in our lives.



_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/7/12 13:33Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Another thought to consider in this is the 'damage' done by the offense. I have a cousin who was shot through the spine accidentally by a man who was target practicing with a compound bow. It was negligence on the part of the shooter lets say. Now, the shooter says, "will you forgive me?" The victim says YES! Your forgiven. But then the shooter takes it upon themself (though forgiven) to help mend the individual back to health. They stayed in the ER and through the surgery at the hospital. They took him to MANY of his therapy appointments and did all he could to help the man mend. God had to heal my cousin- but the shooter had a role to play also.

He could have walked away and said "I'm forgiven!" See ya and wouldn't want to be ya! If he had done that would my cousin have been justified in saying, "wait a minute!, are you not at least going to call an ambulance? I'm bleeding here, please help me! I can't feel my legs! Help me, please I'm begging you!" What had it been if the shooter had walked off and said- "just take the pain man! Deal with it! You forgave me now get over it! Quit talking about it!" The victim ... "But I'm still bleeding! I still am hurt and I need your help!" ... The shooter just walks off and says... "Cast what I did into the sea of forgetfulness! You never forgave me or you would drop it!" The victim cries out... "No, you don't understand I still can't walk. You have gone on- but the injury to me has not healed yet. I need you to help me heal." The shooter just says, "Well, I can't heal you God will have to do that. You need to give it to God and pray more. You need a spiritual backbone about this. You didn't really forgive me or you would leave me alone."

The man that actually shot my cousin was with him as much as possible until he could walk again. The man died in a boat fire.

What lesson can we learn from what this real life shooter did do and what we should consider about what he could have done? All the shooter was being is 'humane'. He was not a Christian as far as I know. What compelled him to do the right thing? We'll never know- but it was a great testimony as to how to react when you really [u]hurt[/u] someone.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/7/12 15:52Profile





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