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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Dead in HIM

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twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1971
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Ron: You have a good point. If I as a believer return to trying to do this thing on my own effort rather than as the fruit of abiding in Him, I will experience the same frustration.


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Travis

 2019/6/24 20:11Profile
1bodySpirit
Member



Joined: 2018/9/22
Posts: 34
Richmond, California

 Re: by twayneb on 2019/6/24 16:36:12

Quote:
So while Paul was a believer when he wrote Romans 7, he is describing his life before Christ while he was attempting in the flesh to follow God by keeping the law...I do not believe Paul was talking about a believers struggle in any way, shape, or form. Our problem in interpreting in that way is that we are trying to interpret scripture through the lenses of our own flesh and emotion rather than through the lenses of the victory that we have in Christ.



Brother Travis,

Thank you for succinctly and accurately summarizing the central truth of Romans 7, in just a few words, as well as making an astute, spiritually discerned observation about the reason there is rampant misunderstanding and wrong teaching about this critically important message from Paul (including, sadly, from such prominent, well-respected, popular voices, such as the one referenced in this thread).

Despite the never-ending discussions, debates, questions and arguments which surround this section of the Bible, it should be abundantly clear - to the spiritual person, guided by the Holy Spirit, who is experiencing the same victory in the Spirit as the apostle did - Paul is describing, in painstaking detail, the stark contrast between the old nature (prior to/without Christ), bound by the fleshly inability to obey God's Law, and the new nature in Christ, by the power of the Spirit - which is now able to fulfill the Law!

You are correct to point out those who do not have a clear, simple understanding of this are not discerning things from a spiritually healthy perspective. People who are not yet truly born anew, having received the new heart/nature and ability to walk by the Spirit's overcoming power, mistakenly cite Romans 7 as the excuse for their carnal frustrations. Ironically, they often go on to cite the first verse of Romans 8; BUT, fail to continue on with the rest of Romans 8, which describes the reason there is no longer condemnation for those truly in Christ - the new law of the Spirit of life! Romans 8 is a descriptive affirmation - to those alive in Christ and walking by the Spirit - putting into words the overcoming, flesh-subduing life found under the new covenant, which God makes with those He calls to the knowledge of Himself.

I recall the way, for years before I was baptized in the Spirit of God, I knew there was something wrong and missing in my life. Despite having thought I had "received Christ," my flesh still ruled my being. No amount of consolation - from those who relied upon the flimsy, false notion we are always bound to struggle and fail - again, citing Romans 7 as their rational - would satisfy my desire to realize the actual truth of new life in Christ Jesus. Praise the name of the Living Heavenly Father, Who eventually saw fit to more clearly reveal His Son to me and seal me with the Holy Spirit! Only then, due to both experiencing the very fulfillment of the Law in my life and spending time letting God give me His spiritually discerned wisdom and understanding about such matters (see 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 NASB) was it possible to properly understand the reason Paul wrote Romans 6-8 the way he did.

It is with humble thankfulness and by God's mercies and wisdom alone, please trust, I convey my parallel agreement with you, Brother in MO. Yet, also born of a thankful heart in Christ, I boldly say to anyone who attempts to add to the truth of Christ and His pure teachings, about the new covenant, such mishandling and speculative teachings about Romans 7 only serve to mislead, confuse and deceive many....


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vessel-Kurt

 2019/6/28 20:03Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5241
NC, USA

 Re:

Matthew Henry:
———————-
It seems rather to be understood of the struggles that are maintained between grace and corruption in sanctified souls. That there are remainders of indwelling corruption, even where there is a living principle of grace, is past dispute; that this corruption is daily breaking forth in sins of infirmity (such as are consistent with a state of grace) is no less certain. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, 1 Jn. 1:8, 10. That true grace strives against these sins and corruptions, does not allow of them, hates them, mourns over them, groans under them as a burden, is likewise certain (Gal. 5:17): The flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the one to the other, so that you cannot do the things that you would. These are the truths which, I think, are contained in this discourse of the apostle. And his design is further to open the nature of sanctification, that it does not attain to a sinless perfection in this life; and therefore to quicken us to, and encourage us in, our conflicts with remaining corruptions. Our case is not singular, that which we do sincerely strive against, shall not be laid to our charge, and through grace the victory is sure at last. The struggle here is like that between Jacob and Esau in the womb, between the Canaanites and Israelites in the land, between the house of Saul and the house of David; but great is the truth and will prevail. Understanding it thus, we may observe here,

1. What he complains of-the remainder of indwelling corruptions, which he here speaks of, to show that the law is insufficient to justify even a regenerate man, that the best man in the world hath enough in him to condemn him, if God should deal with him according to the law, which is not the fault of the law, but of our own corrupt nature, which cannot fulfil the law. The repetition of the same things over and over again in this discourse shows how much Paul's heart was affected with what he wrote, and how deep his sentiments were. Observe the particulars of this complaint. (1.) I am carnal, sold under sin, v. 14. He speaks of the Corinthians as carnal, 1 Co. 3:1. Even where there is spiritual life there are remainders of carnal affections, and so far a man may be sold under sin; he does not sell himself to work wickedness, as Ahab did (1 Ki. 21:25), but he was sold by Adam when he sinned and fell-sold, as a poor slave that does his master's will against his own will-sold under sin, because conceived in iniquity and born in sin. (2.) What I would, that I do not; but what I hate, that do I, v. 15. And to the same purport, v. 19, 21, When I would do good, evil is present with me. Such was the strength of corruptions, that he could not attain that perfection in holiness which he desired and breathed after. Thus, while he was pressing forward towards perfection, yet he acknowledges that he had not already attained, neither was already perfect, Phil. 3:12. Fain he would be free from all sin, and perfectly do the will of God, such was his settled judgment; but his corrupt nature drew him another way: it was like a clog, that checked and kept him down when he would have soared upward, like the bias in a bowl, which, when it is thrown straight, yet draws it aside. (3.) In me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good, v. 18. Here he explains himself concerning the corrupt nature, which he calls flesh; and as far as that goes there is no good to be expected, any more than one would expect good corn growing upon a rock, or on the sand which is by the sea-side. As the new nature, as far as that goes, cannot commit sin (1 Jn. 3:9), so the flesh, the old nature, as far as that goes, cannot perform a good duty. How should it? For the flesh serveth the law of sin (v. 25), it is under the conduct and government of that law; and, while it is so, it is not likely to do any good. The corrupt nature is elsewhere called flesh (Gen. 6:3, Jn. 3:6); and, though there may be good things dwelling in those that have this flesh, yet, as far as the flesh goes, there is no good, the flesh is not a subject capable of any good. (4.) I see another law in my members warring against the law of my mind, v. 23. The corrupt and sinful inclination is here compared to a law, because it controlled and checked him in his good motions. It is said to be seated in his members, because, Christ having set up his throne in his heart, it was only the rebellious members of the body that were the instruments of sin-in the sensitive appetite; or we may take it more generally for all that corrupt nature which is the seat not only of sensual but of more refined lusts. This wars against the law of the mind, the new nature; it draws the contrary way, drives on a contrary interest, which corrupt disposition and inclination are as great a burden and grief to the soul as the worst drudgery and captivity could be. It brings me into captivity. To the same purport (v. 25), With the flesh I serve the law of sin; that is, the corrupt nature, the unregenerate part, is continually working towards sin. (5.) His general complaint we have in v. 24, O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? The thing he complains of is a body of death; either the body of flesh, which is a mortal dying body (while we carry this body about with us, we shall be troubled with corruption; when we are dead, we shall be freed from sin, and not before), or the body of sin, the old man, the corrupt nature, which tends to death, that is, to the ruin of the soul. Or, comparing it to a dead body, the touch of which was by the ceremonial law defiling, if actual transgressions be dead works (Heb. 9:14), original corruption is a dead body. It was as troublesome to Paul as if he had had a dead body tied to him, which he must have carried about with him. This made him cry out, O wretched man that I am! A man that had learned in every state to be content yet complains thus of his corrupt nature. Had I been required to speak of Paul, I should have said, "O blessed man that thou art, an ambassador of Christ, a favourite of heaven, a spiritual father of thousands!" But in his own account he was a wretched man, because of the corruption of nature, because he was not so good as he fain would be, had not yet attained, neither was already perfect. Thus miserably does he complain. Who shall deliver me? He speaks like one that was sick of it, that would give any thing to be rid of it, looks to the right hand and to the left for some friend that would part between him and his corruptions. The remainders of indwelling sin are a very grievous burden to a gracious soul.


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Todd

 2019/6/28 20:15Profile





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