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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Dead in HIM

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JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1154
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Todd

Thank you for clarifying...

And yes we will (according to scripture) experience different trials and struggles in our flesh and with our flesh however the experience being illustrated in Romans 7-8 is again (according to scripture) distinctive even from a syntactical perspective...

But perhaps we are talking past one another and in an effort to better understand you,... can you explain what you mean when you use the phrase “born again”?

We could possibly be using this term differently-


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Fletcher

 2019/6/24 11:25Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5241
NC, USA

 Re:

//can you explain what you mean when you use the phrase “born again”?//

Is that a trick question?


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Todd

 2019/6/24 12:26Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1154
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: trick question?

Not at all ....

How could you be tricked by helping me to understand what you are saying when you use a phrase that may mean something different to me?

Not necessarily incompatibly different but there is likely some difference worth noting and it could be that I am misusing the term to include more than it does and thereby unwittingly misspeaking when I use it-


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Fletcher

 2019/6/24 13:24Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5241
NC, USA

 Re:

Being born again is a place of “entering” whereby God grants eternal life to a person who places his faith in Jesus Christ, meaning he believes correctly about who Jesus was, and that his death on the cross was necessary as an atonement for sin. “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12. Repentance is a necessary part of this process.

The issue on the table seems to be whether anything is required in addition to faith for a person to be born again. I would strongly argue “no.” Where I might be willing to argue is what “saving faith” means or what it means to “believe.” It means more than mental assent but I am not sure how much more is possible to state with certainty, which is why we are admonished to examine ourselves.


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Todd

 2019/6/24 13:58Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1154
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: Thank You

Yes we are using that term to describe different events- that is why I had misunderstood what you were intending...


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Fletcher

 2019/6/24 14:28Profile
cup
Member



Joined: 2018/9/6
Posts: 154


 Re: What two events?

I would like to know what two events you are referring to.


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Vern

 2019/6/24 16:59Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 965


 Re:

I believe Fletcher has explained it in detail,... Although my love and care is also w/ you other brothers.

Should we not,.. or in other words,.. would it not be of the highest importance to re-examine the true meaning of some important words, and how they are used in Scriptures?

Words that, that have been taken down through a ‘tradition’ , to take on a different meaning ,.. a softer meaning,.. a distorted meaning, rather than the original intention?

A real study of these Words,...

Here are just some of those Words:

*Jesus’ Name: What is His Name ? Jesus’ Name is NOT just *Jesus*,..
His Name is *the whole Word of God.

*The true meaning of ‘Faith’ , and how it is used in the Bible ?.. please consider *Abraham* faith, God, Who is Spirit, spoke to Abraham,..Abraham heard God,.. He *Believed* it was God,.. *Obeyed God after being ‘led by the Spirit of God

* the true meaning of ‘Believe’ .. how it is used in the Bible. ?(refer back Abraham)

* and what about the *Faith of Jesus, or Jesus’ Faith that He heard His Father,God,.. and walked it out.. obeyed (The Faith of Jesus Christ)


* Grace, ,. And how it is used according to Lordship in His kingdom that we
have been called into ?

If the kingdom of God, .. (The Word), That we have been called into,is a resurrection Life,..Where The Lord resurrects His very Life in us, to Live out His Life in us,.. ( Not I that liveth, but Christ that Liveth in me)....ye are dead. ... (in order to Live).. Spiritually minded,.. led by His Spirit.

But the carnally minded is death,..( to the Life of God)

Paul says that it is *THE* high calling’ of God ,.. (God,..The Word)

We seek not to be deceived,... and our hearts desire to help others that may be deceived.....

just truly caring,

—————-♥️
elizabeth



 2019/6/24 19:09Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1971
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
.
I believe Saul/Paul was born again the second he said “Who are you, Lord?” in Acts 9:5. The moment he recognized Jesus as Lord and had every intention of being a bond-servant of Christ.

Paul’s admits to a struggle with the flesh in Rom 7, as all believers do. But he was still born again in the midst of the struggle. We are not saved by works nor are we kept saved by works. Nothing could be clearer in the NT than that fact. True faith will produce works without doubt but this is not a “chicken or the egg” type dilemma. Faith comes first and works flow from faith.



Paul talks in Romans 6 about baptism into Christ's death through which the old man is dead and the new life is now the life of Christ living in me. Paul then contrasts his life under the law as a Pharisee with the new life in Christ described in Romans 6. (Notice he talks about being married to the law and then through death being free to be married to another.)So while Paul was a believer when he wrote Romans 7, he is describing his life before Christ while he was attempting in the flesh to follow God by keeping the law. He then turns around again at the end of the chapter and brings up back to the new life in Christ and the victory that we have when we walk in the Spirit rather than walking in the flesh (our own effort).

I do not believe Paul was talking about a believers struggle in any way, shape, or form. Our problem in interpreting in that way is that we are trying to interpret scripture through the lenses of our own flesh and emotion rather than through the lenses of the victory that we have in Christ . Recall that Paul makes statements in chapter 6 of the absolutely unequivocal victory over sin that we have through our baptism in to Christs death and resurrection by His life.


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Travis

 2019/6/24 19:36Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1971
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

As to being born again, we also find that in Romans 6. It is a baptism into His death and a resurrection to new life in Him. When He died, we died with Him. But we must through faith surrender ourselves to that death and be resurrected by the Spirit into new life. Remember Jesus said that if any man would come after me let him first deny himself and take up his cross and follow Jesus. Follow Him where? To His death and resurrection.

God, I am done with living for me. I believe that You died for me and will resurrect me to new life in You. So I lay my life down at your feet, knowing that Your death and resurrection bring me forgiveness and new life.

It is a spiritual transaction.

That is why water baptism is so amazing. It is the physical picture of death, burial, and resurrection, of spiritual rebirth and new life in Him. Water baptism is the picture, the physical representation if you will, of the actual baptism described in Romans 6.


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Travis

 2019/6/24 19:44Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2722
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Romans 7 is a life where Paul after being born again lived as a legalist. We have all experienced this phase in our Christian life in which we instead of living by Spirit, live by law.



I believe that this is a very good observation, but there's more to consider.

It's interesting how discussion of Romans 7 always seems to revolve around whether Paul is thinking about his condition before or after conversion. But the question of Christian or Non-Christian hardly enters his line of argument.

Paul's focus is on the relationship between man and the law, whether the man is Christian or not. A Christian is certainly not under the law, but should he turn back to it instead of remaining totally dependent upon the grace of God in Christ Jesus, then he will find himself just as helpless as a non-Christian and, like him, having nothing more to rely upon than his own strength of character. So the tragedy repeats itself: sin finds occasion through the commandment.

In Christ,


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Ron Halverson

 2019/6/24 19:55Profile





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