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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Can one who commits suicide be saved?

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TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5303
NC, USA

 Re:

gt768-

First of all, I am not a proponent of OSAS; secondly, in the OP John MacArthur is quoted saying "So if a true Christian would commit suicide in a time of extreme weakness, he or she would be received into heaven (Jude 24)."

I agree with him that it would be exceedingly rare for a true Christian to fall so low as to commit suicide.

But some Christians are (or become) mentally ill, or are under some other form of extreme emotional or physical duress. Thank goodness God alone is their judge and not you. God chose murderers to be his greatest leaders and greatest apostle.


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Todd

 2019/6/15 8:03Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3206
Texas

 Re: gt768

gt768.... I appreciate your feedback, maybe I can help you a little going forward, please remember not all this world understands and can interpret all scripture, so at times you may have to dumb down for some of us that come here that are not Bible scholars. When I say dumb down, I'm not saying water down any scripture, I'm saying I truly believe God wouldn't mind if you used a little wisdom and helped the less fortune in the understanding of the scriptures, by using some layman's terms and heart and wisdom, to help us understand better. We all can Google and search scriptures to prove our point/points, "I could even do that" but how many can "puff down" and speak from the heart and help us understand what God is saying in his word?

Example, I'm in the AC business, and I can talk to a customer where they have the deer in the headlights look after explaining my plan or repair to them, but I'm also blessed to be able to put those words into layman's terms, where they totally understand what I'm saying. GT, is it possible you can just set aside the scriptures for a moment, and explain to a lesser understanding person, the message you're trying to get across in layman's terms, to help me understand? We all should remember, some folks come here with no knowledge of the scriptures, and unless Greg designed SI to be for Bible Scholars only, we should all offer more grace to those that come here to learn.

They don't teach Algebra 2 or Precalculus or Statistics in first grade, some that come here are first graders, this is God's place, please don't come here all puffed up and throw out 20 scriptures that some may not understand, and say "the scriptures are on your side". If I don't understand those scriptures, how is it possible for me to know or understand that God's word "is" on your side?

God Bless
Mr. Bill


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Mr. Bill

 2019/6/15 9:06Profile
gt768
Member



Joined: 2019/6/12
Posts: 37


 Re:

TMK, I sincerely thank you for the willingness to reason.
You say you're not a proponent of OSAS, yet considering your previous responses in this thread I honestly wonder if there is anything you believe a Christian can actually do to fall from grace, as evidenced by your defense of MacArthur's statement. Look at his abuse of Jude 24. The verse actually reads "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy" The verse is speaking of God's grace to enable one to overcome sin and stay faithful so that they can stand before God faultless- it's sure not saying that God will receive someone if they turn away and die in sin like Macarthur is using it.

Yes, God is the Judge and not John Macarthur who is speaking contrary to the terms that the Judge has already laid out in advance to tell us the criteria for His verdicts. Who is J.M. to say that one's extreme weakness is an excuse when almost everyone who commits suicide does so in a time of extreme weakness, emotional duress, etc? Who is he to bend the rules like that when the Bible doesn't give him the authority to? He has basically said that we don't need to overcome and stay faithful if we feel extremely weak when the Judge's own word says that His grace is made perfect in weakness (2 Cor 12). This goes beyond suicide and applies to all willful disobedience. No one has the right to give up on serving God since He has promised grace to continue faithful to those who continue to diligently seek Him. Now I'd grant that if someone is incapacitated and really doesn't have the mental capacity to know what they are doing, then that is a matter that the Judge hasn't given us information to make a conclusion on. But when that is really the case, the contents of a discussion like this would not be relevant since they'd not be able to recall and/or process the info. Thank God for His mighty deliverance in Christ and that He can transform those who turn to Him and keep seeking Him into great Apostles though beforetime they may have been murderers.

 2019/6/15 13:06Profile
gt768
Member



Joined: 2019/6/12
Posts: 37


 Re:

MrBillpro, I'm sorry if what I said is really beyond you, but I can't set aside the Scriptures and speak out of my own heart. That would be wrong. To put the point though in layman's terms the best related to the question dealt with in this thread, here you go: Jesus said His mother and His brethren are those which hear the Word of God and do it. He really meant that. He is talking about the course and ultimate intent which we have chosen to set our hearts upon- and that is proven by our words and actions. We have to get on the right course, the strait and narrow way that leads to life which He spoke of- and we have to stay faithful and remain on it- otherwise we reject Christ's Lordship- and then His High Priesthood to atone for our sins cannot profit us. The Judge has already said it will not be well for those who die not submitted to Christ's authority- in other words, to those who die in unbelief. Hebrews 5:7-10 really puts this in layman's terms as well as it can be said; and also shows what those in extreme weakness, duress, etc ought to do.

Hebrews 5:7-10- "7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec."

 2019/6/15 13:24Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3206
Texas

 Re: gt768

GT...Thanks! That helps, just to make sure we're on the same page, now I'm talking about people that have accepted Christ into their lives as their Lord and Savior. So if you're talking about people that have accepted Christ into their lives as their Lord and Savior, As I said before "Common sense tells us that many, if not most of us will die with sins of which we have not repented". So is everyone that has sinned today, and not repented yet, that die in the next 30 seconds, going to hell?

Gt...What do you make of these statements and scriptures? Thanks!

So, can a sin as grave as suicide destroy one's salvation?

The Bible tells us that at the moment of salvation a believer's sins are forgiven (John 3:16; 10:28). When we become a child of God, all of our sins, even those committed after salvation, are no longer held against us.

Ephesians 2:8 says, "God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God." (NLT) So, we are saved by God's grace, not by our own good deeds. In the same way that our good works don't save us, our bad ones, or sins, cannot keep us from salvation.

Paul made it plain in Romans 8:38-39 that nothing can separate us from God's love:

And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow -- not even the powers of hell can separate us from God's love. No power in the sky above or in the earth below -- indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There is only one sin that can separate us from God and send a person to hell. The only unforgivable sin is refusing to accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Anyone who turns to Jesus for forgiveness is made righteous by his blood (Romans 5:9) which covers our sin -- past, present, and future.


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Mr. Bill

 2019/6/15 14:15Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 638
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

I have pity for those who commit suicide, and compassion for the people who endure the terrible pain of losing someone to suicide.

Having said that, suicide is never excusable. I think the percentage of christians who take their own lives as a result of mental instability (I mean psychological problems so bad they have no control over it) is very small indeed. One of the characteristics of a born again person is a sound mind.

One of my brothers is bi-polar, he takes lithium and has schizophrenic tendencies. I am still faithful to warn him, though, if he takes his life he WILL end up separated from God forever in hell. Am I trying to scare him? Absolutely! I love him and he knows it. It isn't love to tell someone there is no penalty for self murder. Love will warn us of the consequences of our actions.

Sometimes people that have lost a loved one to suicide change their theology because the thought of being separated forever from them (and the thought of them in hell eternally) is too much for them to handle. I sympathize, though I can't agree.


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Nigel Holland

 2019/6/15 14:16Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3206
Texas

 Re: Nigel

Nigel, I could spin that to say "Sometimes people that have family members or friends that think about committing suicide, can change their theology because the thought of them wanting to commit suicide, is just to much for them to handle. I've posted scripture/scriptures that say this "There is only one sin that can separate us from God and send a person to hell. The only unforgivable sin is refusing to accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Anyone who turns to Jesus for forgiveness is made righteous by his blood (Romans 5:9) which covers our sin -- past, present, and future." So are we splitting hairs, or is there solid evidence in scripture that say's suicide is an unforgivable sin, if so it would contradict the one I just posted.


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Mr. Bill

 2019/6/15 14:29Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3206
Texas

 Re:

I sincerely appreciate everyone's thoughts and opinions. but I don't think the subject of this debate is is very healthy for me personally, mind or spirit. I truly believe if you were to ask 100 of the worlds greatest theologians, they would also be split on their answers, so who am I to debate this subject. I hope all you Fathers have a wonderful and Blessed Fathers day, as we continue to serve the Greatest Father ever, Father God.


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Mr. Bill

 2019/6/15 14:43Profile
gt768
Member



Joined: 2019/6/12
Posts: 37


 Re:

MrBillPro, You would say in another post that continuing with this discussion isn't healthy for you, but I'm going to respond to your earlier post since you addressed it to me. I won't mind if you do not respond.

You wrote "GT...Thanks! That helps, just to make sure we're on the same page, now I'm talking about people that have accepted Christ into their lives as their Lord and Savior. So if you're talking about people that have accepted Christ into their lives as their Lord and Savior, As I said before "Common sense tells us that many, if not most of us will die with sins of which we have not repented". So is everyone that has sinned today, and not repented yet, that die in the next 30 seconds, going to hell?"

We're definitely not on the same page. "Accepting Jesus" isn't a term the Bible uses, but letting that go and equating accepting Jesus with a living, obedient faith in Him, true belief in His entire person (and that's truly accepting Jesus), a faith that God is pleased with, then sins that are not repented of are not compatible with that. 1 John 3:4 says that sin is the transgression of God's law and John puts that in direct contrast to a real hope in Christ (read 1 John 3). Jesus is Lord and He upholds God's law (read Hebrews Matthew Matthew 5:17-18, 7:12, Hebrews 1:8-9, Revelation 22:14, etc)- I have to be submitted to His law or I'm at enmity with Him (see Romans 8:7). So yes, all those who die in willful sin go to hell and many Scriptures I've already posted prove that.

You wrote "Gt...What do you make of these statements and scriptures? Thanks! So, can a sin as grave as suicide destroy one's salvation? The Bible tells us that at the moment of salvation a believer's sins are forgiven (John 3:16; 10:28). When we become a child of God, all of our sins, even those committed after salvation, are no longer held against us."

The Bible never says anyone is ultimately and finally saved until they finish their race of faith faithful in God's eyes Hebrews 3:12-15- "12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." If you mean the moment someone truly repents, believes on Christ, and enters into God's favor (i.e. God's grace) then that is only the beginning of their race, their rehabilitation program, their initiation into Christ's school (all synonymous). Anyone who doesn't believe that has to throw out many, many passages of God's Word- especially Hebrews 3 to 5, Hebrews 12, Revelation 2 and 3, Revelation 21-22 and a multitude of others- we need to live by every word of God, His whole counsel which never contradicts itself. Initial belief, even when genuine faith, is not final salvation- and nowhere in the Bible does it say that future sins can't be held against you. If that were the case then you would not need Christ's High Priesthood to cleanse your record anymore nor would you need to follow and Obey Jesus as Lord at all. Once saved always saved is a deadly deception and there are entire books in the Bible written to refute this damnable heresy brought in by grievous wolves (2 Peter and Jude in particular).

You then wrote: "Ephesians 2:8 says, "God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God." (NLT) So, we are saved by God's grace, not by our own good deeds. In the same way that our good works don't save us, our bad ones, or sins, cannot keep us from salvation."

We only enter into God's favor because we forsake our sins in repentance and submit to God's authority in Christ. God accepting us on these terms (His terms) is grace because we only deserved hell and He didn't have to provide a means to be received back into His favor. Ephesians 2:8 is saying that works cannot buy our way into God's favor nor atone for one's own sins. We cannot devise our own method to save ourselves that God is going to accept in place of His gracious offer and our meeting its terms. This was the error of many 1st century Jews (with their rejection of Christ thinking the ceremonies in the law were enough to save them) and it is the error of the RCC system (with its sacramental salvation). We are indebted to God and cannot work off our debt nor bribe Him. We are damaged by sin and cannot rehabilitate ourselves. Since Christ has provided an atonement for us as the perfect lamb of God, we can be accepted by faith in Him- but only a living, obedient faith that upholds God's authority and involves repentance and works meet for repentance. Otherwise God's grace would be a license to continue in sin or to return to sin- it is not. We must cooperate with God's purpose in offering us grace or we will not receive grace. Titus 2:11-14- "11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." To come to Christ and receive grace we must submit to and come into agreement with this purpose of grace seen above- and we must walk by faith and live by faith in like manner afterwards (Romans 1:16-17, Matthew 24:13, etc) Grace isn't earned, but it has terms (as many free gifts do). If we forsake living by the terms and refuse to come into line with the Truth His grace is instructing us in, we will thus forsake the benefits of grace. If this sounds strange it's because the slippery OSAS teachers and other liars will not say these things (at least without contradicting themselves quickly) because they are about scratching ears, getting a following, and making money.

You then wrote: "Paul made it plain in Romans 8:38-39 that nothing can separate us from God's love:
And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow -- not even the powers of hell can separate us from God's love. No power in the sky above or in the earth below -- indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord."

A good translation like the KJV doesn't say "nothing can separate us from God's love." Romans 8:38-39 is saying that no external force, circumstance or power can separate a faithful Christian from Christ's love. It is not saying that we can't separate ourselves by turning our back on God's authority and serving sin. If you read these verses in the context of Romans you'll see that Paul had already said that even the Christians he was writing to could yet go back and choose to serve sin and die (i.e. separate themselves from God's love). See Romans 6:15-16, Romans 8:13, Romans 11:22, etc. OSAS people misread Romans 8:38-39 to say that nothing can separate us from the love of God even should they forsake Jesus as Lord and refuse to do according to His Word. But Romans 8:38-39 doesn't say THAT.

You then wrote "There is only one sin that can separate us from God and send a person to hell. The only unforgivable sin is refusing to accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Anyone who turns to Jesus for forgiveness is made righteous by his blood (Romans 5:9) which covers our sin -- past, present, and future."

And I addressed the content of this statement sufficiently in the rest of this post. Thank you for being willing to reason.

 2019/6/15 16:34Profile
SteveHale
Member



Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 189
NSW Australia

 Re:

gt768, you speak the truth!


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Steve

 2019/6/15 18:37Profile





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