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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776

 Re: The positive within the negative

Thomas a Kempis wrote:

"Search not who spoke this or that, but mark WHAT is spoken. Men pass away, but the "truth of the Lord endureth forever." Ps. 117:2 God speaks to us in sundry ways, without respect of persons. Rom. 2:11; 10:12

God can and does use flawed vessels. Now, how much more positive can you get. (not to negate the serious concern regarding false or misinformed preachers and teachers)


 2005/7/10 16:18Profile

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3229



roadsign wrote:
God can and does use flawed vessels.

You Bet! I am one, and I have yet ran across an unflawed vessel yet, but I have come across a few that thought they were. :-P

Mr. Bill

 2005/7/10 17:02Profile

Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776

 Re: better to err...

A quote by Art Katz:

If we love the Lord and his church … we need to be exceedingly jealous of anything that threatens its character and its call. Better to err in attempting an assessment than just silently passing over and letting the things work its way out of whatever incalculable damage it might do.

From the video:
[url=]Turning Aside to See[/url]


 2005/7/10 17:12Profile

 Re: I am so sick of the negativity in this forum

Brainerd's diary is a wealth of the spiritual passion of a man who longed to see American Indians won to Christ. [b]His hatred for [u]his own sinfulness[/u] is found throughout the book. Some days Brainerd is on the mountain of God and the next [u]he is in the valley of despair[/u][/b].

I hope this means it's ok for all of us hear to tell the truth about how we feel from time to time, day to day, even? It doesn't have to be all sweetness and light- is this what you're saying?

John Paterson was born in 1900. God called him to W.Africa when he was 24, where he went with his wife and daughter. 4 years later, both of them died from malaria. 25 years later, John was still out there, teaching agriculture. He introduced rice, the soya bean and hydro-electricity via shallow fish ponds, to a culture where malnutrition was normal and most mothers lost at least half of the children they bore. Altogether, he spent 50 years in that mission field.

Many men of that generation lost loved ones or had to leave them, for the sake of the gospel. And there have always been lone servants of the Lord, who went without 'society' backing, eventually, [b]and God used them[/b] - built whole mission fields around their willingness.

Where is 'home' exactly? Where you live? Or the centre of God's perfect will? Ooops! Of course, they should be one and the same place... I know God needs to call people specifically, at least, that's the theory of it, but, take the opportunities that God puts in your way. If you don't take them up, you miss the ease of your home training ground, because it ain't going to be easier elsewhere. It only takes about 1mm of willingness, for God to turn it into several miles of service for Him.

Neil, I hope you don't 'think' I'm being negative. I know you have a burden for souls [i]and[/i] you do something about it, but there [u]is no way[/u] to be honest before each other and the Lord, (who sees the hearts of us all) and have nothing negative to say about what is happening in the world and our churches.

Believe it or not, it is possible for Christians to become victims of their own image as 'good guys' always thinking highly of each other - to such an extent they find themselves in an endless loop of it being taught as unChristian to say anything about any sin at all. Much to my surprise, I noticed that what Jesus said before He said to forgive seven times seven, was 3 Take heed to yourselves: If [b]thy brother[/b] trespass against thee, [b]rebuke him[/b]; and if he repent, forgive him.' (Luke 17)

If we really 'love', the way we are thus instructed, we would probably spend more time with each other getting this sort of thing sorted out. Would that be negative? I think not. Oh! that I'd had the courage years ago, when it would have made so much difference to my own life! Situations can roll on to become like stinking Lazarus in the tomb, if not addressed. Like a ripe boil, lancing is not optional in the end. Unless church members grasp this truth with tenderness in their hearts for one another, I fear we kid ourselves. Dealing with stuff at the 'rebuke' level, is like the antiseptic which prevents anything worse setting in. I recognise it takes courage to do this... Do we have it?

was just thinking the same thing during the middle of the day. I like to cross swords to strengthen what I believe, but I think we should realize we are all for the same Saviour. The same God and Father, the same Spirit, [b]the same kind of trust in Christ[/b].

letsgetbusy, this is not a dig at you personally, but just what kind of trust in Christ do we all have? The main question in my mind is not to do with whether my theology can be found in a book somewhere, but, whether my relationship with Him is meaningful - - - to me and Him.

Should we not be glad for light of the Spirit shining on the dark corners of our hearts even if it makes us feel miserable? Aught we not to be grateful for those throughout history who expose error – even at the risk being labelled an annoyance? Are we not glad that Jesus was lifted up - with all the shame and ugliness – in order that we could be saved?

Yes! Yes! Yes!

Krispy - It was good to learn more about you. :-)

Final thought: I've blanked out some of what came to me as I was writing, because I didn't want to strike the wrong 'tone'. I hope I'll hear about it if I failed...

 2005/7/10 17:47

 Brother Daryl

I've always been fascinated about the realtionship between David Brainerd and Jerusha Edwards. I do believe they loved each other deeply. He was a Godly missionary of 29, and she a Godly lass of 17. She must have looked up to him in some measure, as well as David looking up to her, in her selfless service to him in his final days in this earthen vessel.

Daryl, you know I was just reflecting and thinking that I would love to write a play about those final days, and the relationship between these two precious saints. But then I thought, "I just cant wrap my mind around the whole thing....y'know, what the play would BE......but then Glory to God He showed me.

It would be an idealized relationship, that I WISH had been between my son's mother and me, fore I still love her to this day, but it went wrong.

 2005/7/10 18:00


Hi, I wrote a PM to KrispyKrittr some days ago and then I had to send two more PM's, to appologise to him because I had been too hasty.

Ellie... I'm just glad you took the time to get to know me a little. I made a new friend in you, and hopefully the feelings are mutual.

And as I said in my PM's... no need to apologize.


 2005/7/10 18:13

 Re: I am liking this...

P.S. Thanks Krispy for sharing more about yourself, Jeep?, 80's hair bands? Fishing...

Yea Mike... imagine! I'm a real dude! LOL... I think I give the impression I suck on lemons and then go into the church and sing hymns super slow and scowl thru the message. I wish y'all could come on down to the sunny south and spend a few days with me... Some would be shocked!

Right now I'm taking a break from a serious air hockey tournament in the living room with my two older kids and a couple of their friends... with GRITS rockin' the mic on the stereo...

I'm not kidding!


 2005/7/10 18:16


I do it because he is very influencial in the Body of Christ, and I have a burden on my heart to not see my brothers and sisters in Christ be deceived.

[i]Eze 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.[/i]

'people are free to bury their heads in the sand and refuse to listen... it's not up to me to make someone accept it.'

Krispy, I think I used to have my head in the sand. People have reasons for hiding. But, it never does any harm to speak out. God can bring back truth to memory, only if it has once been heard. It's lonely being the voice, but thank you.

 2005/7/10 18:21

Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573


"There are many many instances where Jesus warned those following Him to watch false teachings..I can look them all up, and post them here, but I think you get the point. IT IS NOT WRONG TO EXPOSE ERROR."

First of all, can we use Jesus as an example of how we can act concerning exposing error? Jesus knew peoples heart for sure. There wasn't any chance of Him being wrong.

We may sometimes think we're calling a spade a spade but could actually be calling a diamond a spade. We, unlike Jesus, can be wrong. What we are confident is error may not be.

It's one thing to expose what you believe to be error to those whom you are pastoring, whom you are responsible for. It's another to just throw it out there in the general public for all to see and be influenced by. Has God called you (any one individual) to be pastor of the entire Church?

I think the biblical model reveals that exposing error may be acceptable in the following circumstances:

- To those whom God has given you authority over (ex. a pastor to his flock [like Jesus in the Luke 12 example] or an apostle to his church)
- In private to those who ask your personal opinion
- To the face of the one you have a disagreement with
-And there's one more scenario I can think of that is obvious (and probably rarely, if ever, occurs in this context) but worth stating: If you get a sure leading from God to do so. Not you really, really think God is probably leading you to say it, but you [i]know[/i] in full faith. Like if God came in His manifest presence or sent an angel or you heard His audible voice. I think this was likely the case with the Old Testament prophets. The Word of the Lord came to them.
(Some may consider themselves watchmen as in Ezekiel 33:6. Is this still applicable in our day? And even if it was, we need to look at the next verse.
Ezekiel 33:7
"Now as for you, son of man, [b]I have appointed you[/b] a watchman for the house of Israel; so [b]you will hear a message from My mouth[/b], and give them warning from Me."
Ezekiel didn't just think it was a good idea to be a watchman, God Himself clearly appointed him as such.)

Outside of those scenarios I mentioned above, I question whether such things are acceptable. If I'm missing a scenario, which I could be, please show me.

I don't know much about Joel Osteen, I've seen him a little bit on t.v. But I bet those who bash him publically would be shamed if they knew him as God does. Who knows what kind of heart of worship and devotion he has towards God? Who knows how much good he does? How much he loves his family and flock. How much he gives to the poor. We might think, "Well if he knew God so well, God would show him his errors." Are you sure about that? If that's true, then who really knew God, Wesley or Whitefield? Spurgeon or Finney?

Isn't it clear that the New Testament way is predominantly love? And love hopes and believes all things. It gives the benefit of the doubt and thinks and hopes the best for people.

If you see a fat person, love probably thinks things like, "Oh, God, help them. They probably have a genetic predisposition to being overweight. They probably really want to be thin and have tried really hard but just haven't been able to get there yet. Thank you God for the grace I have on my health. The devil is probably really keeping them in that bondage. Oh, God, help them!"

But the old man, priding itself on "being real", probabaly would think, "Wow, they're really fat! They are probabaly really lazy. They probably just like food too much and don't try hard enough to discipline themselves. They probably have resisted God in trying to get them healthy. They need to get with it because they aren't glorifying God like that."

Sure, there is an appropriate time and place to expose error, but we must let love and wisdom guide us. Despite what the old man may think, despite it's sincere desire to control people and situations (even for good), [b]love never fails[/b]. We need to love people and trust God to take care of the rest.

 2005/7/10 18:27Profile

 Re: Krispy

understand that I'm prayerfully choosing and considering every word I type to you; I don't know if you got exactly what I was trying to convey.

While I'm heartened to see the details of your earthly existence, thats not what I was going for, what I was asking was this: in the faith, this Most Holy Faith, what person, past or present, historical, do you look up to? find edifying?

what, in the faith, do you see, and say to yourself, "I wanna be like that", "I wanna walk like that". Of course everyone would say , "Jesus!"....what I'm looking for is what flawed human vessel from the past of the faith do you find praiseworthy?

I will stand for truth... and people are free to bury their heads in the sand and refuse to listen. All I am required to do is state the truth, it's not up to me to make someone accept it.

no offense (and I mean that) Has God elected you 'watchman' to warn the helpless of the impending danger of apostate prosperity preachers? Hear me out, if you were face to face with Joel Osteen, would call him the names you did on this forum?

I pray you don't answer that last one , 'yes', because those within earshot of this hypothetical encounter would assume you were some godless heathen, instead of a God-fearing, Bible-loving believer. They would hear the fruit of your mouth, "liar, deciever, wimp", and assume you did not know Christ, because such a witness is the NOT the witness of a man who knows Christ...a man who [b]follows[/b]Christ.

Personally, I saw Osteen, when I still had a TV, (Praise God I don't anymore) and his witness just didn't resonate in my soul. I'm more partial to fellers like Brainerd, and Frank ever heard of him? When he wanted to denounce somebody, he would call them "worldly fleshlings"...or was it "fleshly worldlings" ?(lol) Bartleman wrote the seminal revival history book, "Azusa Street". Even if your a Baptist anti-pentecostal, this book is still a must read! What a wonderful model of a Godly man, dear brother Frank gave us.....

But in the end, who cares who neil is partial to, or doesn't like. There are plenty, plenty of preachers I find disturbing, heretical and fleshly, but God has tole me to keep my mouth shut, and He will tend to these apostates himself. But do what you want, type what you want, etc etc etc, coz the Constitution guarantees everyones rights, right?

oh anyway, I hope your not offended by what I closing lemme say this, when you storm onto the forum with the Krispy version of the 'truth', there's little grace evident, and I for one, LOVE this forum, and the community that is IN it. This is church, the cyber church of the future, and just maybe we should start prayfully considering every word we type.

I love you.

 2005/7/10 18:38

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