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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Problems with the "Literal" Adam

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Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1062
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Todd and Travis:

The exodus statement "God made the heavens and the earth is 6 days" is a general statement.

It carries in it a common understanding as Travis said and that's 6 literal 24 hr days.

But the point I made earlier is that the elements water and earth existed in a chaotic formlessness before the first day was announced as completed. What we cannot assume is a huge expanse of time for the earth/water existence. God didn't say when these were made, but it's inferred by their presence as the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the deep.

Secondly, I find it impossible to use verse 1 and 2 for a gap theory. The reason is simple ( too me) there were no stars or planets created yet. We don't see those until vs 14 and on. So, the necessity for a gap to explain old suns and stars and a universe runs contrary to explicit texts telling me God didn't make them until he literally had lands and oceans and plants already made. Taken literally you could say we might have a tree older than the oldest star...which would be ours.

The gap theory is necessary only if you've agreed with current science and their ancient earth/sun/universe assertions. But the gap theory is a non-starter if you hold to a literal 6 day creation.

It takes no stretch of faith or imagination to consider the 'elements' as existing before their organizing; the light in verse 3 could only be God's own light from himself as the sun hadn't been created yet.

If I inject current scientific claims into Genesis I am obliged to honor them by rearranging scripture to fit them in. I then must re-interpret the plain assertions of Genesis in light of a new hermeneutic (current scientific claims). In short, I must in due course admit a new interpreter of scripture into the field of theology which is would be modern science.

The question then becomes why modern science why not ancient myth? Pagan histories? Ancient science? Ancient philosophy? Any of these could have staked their claim in their times for a place in biblical hermeneutics. But our ancients recognized the error of these ancient voices (ancient to us, current to them) do we recognize these voices as the Spirit of God or usurpers, intruders, skeptics?

I recognize modern science as an intruder into biblical hermeneutics whereby it's conclusion inevitably result in skepticism of scripture and faith in modern science.


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Marvin

 2019/6/7 16:57Profile
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1752
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

He did die as he was not immortal anymore as genetic degradation started happening .
He did die thou . The thing is Adams death affected the whole of creation.
The devolution of creation started happening when Adam fell as the world was created perfect
You ignored the science


_________________
Dominic Shiells

 2019/6/7 17:00Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5188
NC, USA

 Re:

Marvin-

Do you really and truly believe the earth is only 6000 years or so old, or do you take it as an act of faith?

I guess I have never considered that before when it comes to YE creationists- ie the idea that it’s a faith issue and not an intellectual issue.

What I mean is that faith is essentially getting past common sense. If that is how you approach this topic I can certainly respect that.

Personally I do not think Gen 1 was intended to be taken word by word literally so I am not conflicted. If I truly believed it is literal, but also truly believe that the scientific evidence is overwhelming for an ancient universe, I would be faced with having to accept Gen 1 by faith despite what my intellect tells me.


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Todd

 2019/6/7 19:01Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1962
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Actually I do believe the earth was created something on the order of 6,000 years ago. It is primarily a faith issue and secondarily an intellectual issue.

You stated that one of the problems solved by a gap theory is a very old universe. But the science that tells us this age is very uncertain. It is all based upon some primary assumptions that presuppose an old universe. But Einstein among others have shown by Mathematics and Physics that the Universe can appear old to us as observers without being old. In other words, it is just as easy to demonstrate scientifically that the Earth and the Universe is 6,000 years old as it is to demonstrate that it is on the order of billions of years old.

Sree brings up some arguments that I also think can be based upon some presuppositions. The battle in the heavens described in Revelation is in the midst of future prophecy. It seems odd to break the flow of future prophecy to suddenly insert a battle that occurred before the creation week. Consider that the rebellion and fall of Lucifer could have actually been the deception of Adam and Eve. What if His jealousy (I will be like God) was toward a man and woman created in the image of God and given authority and dominion (See Hebrews 2)? Satan's fall does not have to be before the Garden, but rather in it. In fact, that, to me, makes more sense of the text than anything else.

I don't think there were element hanging around in limbo. God created spacetime (Heavens) and a planet in that spacetime (Earth). But He had not made it more than a ball in spacetime, so it was obviously without form and void (simply a ball with nothing on it yet). Then God said, "Let there be light" and began to to add form to and fill the Earth with everything that was necessary to support man, the one who the whole of spacetime exists to house.

I believe that the entire universe, every bit of it, was created by God for man. To realize when I look out at the stars that God put them there for me, the one who He desires to bear His image and glory. The one who He desires to know as a son.

Just my perspective brothers. I understand yours and respect it. Just don't agree with it. However one thing I do believe is that we are all desiring to be transformed more and more into His image and likeness and that He is pretty amazing to create us simply to know and have intimate relationship with us.


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Travis

 2019/6/7 19:19Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5188
NC, USA

 Re:

Amen Travis.

You do make excellent points.


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Todd

 2019/6/7 20:03Profile





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