| The Ressurection and the Rapture: Jewish Expectation |
In scripture have you ever wondered why in Acts Paul never mentions anything about the Rapture or Paul because the whole Jewish idea of the Ressurection of the Saints is prevelant through scripture
1 Corinthians 15 King James Version (KJV)
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
1 Corithians 15 talks about the Rapture at the end but the whole emphasis about the Ressurection
Satan Bound the Thousand Years
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
1And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them, 2Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide
The whole concept of the Ressurection of the Dead is the whole way through scripture
As a Christian believing that there is life after death is one of the main things that we believe in.
When the early apostles saw the lifeless corpse of Jesus on the cross and then a lifeless body seeing that alive again gave them hope of when they died that there was hope of life after death and gave them that drive.
It is entirely through the early church fathers and the dead sea scrolls?
I will post that soon.
To me the Ressurection and the Rapture are the same thing as even 1 Thessalonians 4 is talking about that !
| 2019/5/11 5:53||Profile|
| Re: The Ressurection and the Rapture: Jewish Expectation |
Most believing saints believe in a rapture. The controversy is just WHEN does it occur.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. (I Cor 15:50-52)
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
31 And He will send forth His angels WITH A GREAT TRUMPET and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (Matt 24:29-31)
In this present evil age there is no other trumpet mentioned or given account of anywhere. The trumpet of 24:31 is absolutely the last and it occurs AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS (Matt 24:29)
It's hardly complicated at all it's just been made that way by entire movements wandering from the basic 101 framework of scripture regarding the matter.
40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:40)
This was the Jewish expectation. At the last day the resurrection would occur. Now we know the last day to be the day of Christ's return - after the tribulation of those days.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and WITH THE TUMPET OF GOD, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (I Thess 4:16-18)
I Cor 15:52
I Thess 4:16
All the same trumpet - the last one!
"Nothing, in our opinion, has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship, maturity and of being the Church that can stand in the Last Days and overcome tribulation, than the misguided confidence that they will not have to face it!" (Art Katz)
| 2019/5/12 4:33||Profile|
| Re: On the last trumpet and the resurrection|
From correspondence between two brothers:
I too appreciated so much your respectful, thoughtful review.
While you make a valid point that the Corinthians could not have known of the trumpets of Revelation, they would very likely have known of Jesus' mention of the "great sound a trumpet" in connection with His return "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Mt 24:29-31).
Consider the larger context of 1Cor 15:50-54. In verse 54 Paul says, "then shall be brought to pass the saying which is written." It is crucial that we ask, 'when is then?', and where is this saying written? The saying, 'death shall be swallowed up in victory' is written in Isa 25:8, which to the admission of all is in a decidedly POST-TRIBULATIONAL CONTEXT (emphasis docs) of the national resurrection of Israel, with Isaiah's own personal resurrection described in the following chapter. Throughout, the context is uniformly the post-tribulational day of the Lord. The day of the Lord resurrection of Israel is the WHEN of Isaiah's prophecy. Is it not also the WHEN of Paul's last trump? How reasonable then, barring powerful presuppositions to the contrary, to associate Paul's last trump with the "great trumpet" of Isa 27:13, which scholars agree is the trumpet that Jesus is referencing in Mt 24:31. Significantly, both mark the great transition of the day of the Lord, which the NT will interpret as the time of Jesus' return.
Moreover, Isa 25:8 and Isa 27:13 both belong to the same literary unit that scholars have called, 'Isaiah's little apocalypse' (ch's 24-27). With such a likely association so easily made, it would seem strange if Paul does not much more carefully distinguish between a post tribulational resurrection and its attendant trumpet and a presumed pre-tribulational resurrection and trumpet 7 years earlier, and so disabuse his Corinthians of the predictable confusion. No, quite plainly, the "then" of the saying of Isa 25:8 IS NOT A PRE-TRIBULATIONAL 'LAST' TRUMP (emphasis docs), but the post-tribulational resurrection, with it's attending Jubilee trumpet at the post-tribulational day of the Lord. This does not at all preclude the feast of trumpets analogy. Though it cannot be insignificant that inspiration ordained that both mentions of the 7th trumpet in Revelation, the 'last' in the series of 7 (Rev 10:7; 11:15) mark the moment of the Lord's return.
| 2019/5/16 7:27||Profile|
| Re: |
David winter did you read my post ?
I am trying to link the aspect of the Jewish ressurection of the dead referred to in the old testament and the rapture
A Messianic Apocalypse (4 Q521)
yourselves in His service! All you hopeful in (your) heart, will you not find the Lord in this? For the Lord will consider the pious (hasidim) and call the righteous by name.  Over the poor His spirit will hover and will renew the faithful with His power. And He will glorify the pious on the throne of the eternal Kingdom. He who liberates the captives, restores sight to the blind, straightens the b[ ent] (Ps. cxlvi, 7–8). And f[ or] ever I will clea[ ve to the h] opeful and in His mercy … And the fr[ uit … ] will not be delayed for anyone  And the Lord will accomplish glorious things which
and in His mercy …And the fr[ uit …] will not be delayed for anyone  And the Lord will accomplish glorious things which have never been as [He …] For He will heal the wounded, and revive the dead and bring good news to the poor (Isa. lxi, 1). …He will lead the uprooted and make the hungry rich
I am trying to argue that the idea of the Jewish ressurection of the dead and the rapture are the same thi
Paul yielded his belief to that gospel which he found in existence. He so earnestly wished his own gospel to agree with that gospel, that he actually on that account went up to Jerusalem to know and consult the apostles, “lest he should run, or had been running in vain.” In other words, he desired that the faith which he had learned and the gospel which he was preaching to be in accordance with theirs. Then, at last, having conferred with the authors, and having agreed with them concerning the rule of faith, they joined their hands in fellowship. Tertullian (c. 207, W), 3.347, 348.
I consider the ressurection and the rapture the same thing
Did not the apostles talk with one another
There is alot of assumptions that we make if you presume a pre tribulation rapture and fundamentally miss the Jewish idea of the ressurection which is post tribulational nature
It is interesting the inter testament literature that deals with it
LI. The Resurrection of the Dead, and the Separation by the Judge of the Righteous and the Wicked. CHAPTER LI. 1. And in those days shall the earth also give back that which has been entrusted to it, And Sheol also shall give back that which it has received, And hell shall give back that which it owes. 5a. For in those days the Elect One shall arise, 2. And he shall choose the righteous and holy from among them: For the day has drawn nigh that they should be saved. 3. And the Elect One shall in those days sit on My throne, And his mouth shall pour forth all the secrets of wisdom and counsel: For the Lord of Spirits hath given (them) to him and hath glorified him. 4. And in those days shall the mountains leap like rams,
And Sheol also shall give back that which it has received, And hell shall give back that which it owes. 5a. For in those days the Elect One shall arise, 2. And he shall choose the righteous and holy from among them: For the day has drawn nigh that they should be saved. 3. And the Elect One shall in those days sit on My throne, And his mouth shall pour forth all the secrets of wisdom and counsel: For the Lord of Spirits hath given (them) to him and hath glorified him. 4. And in those days shall the mountains leap like rams, And the hills also shall skip like lambs satisfied with milk, And the faces of ⌈all⌉ the angels in heaven shall be lighted up with joy. 5b. And the earth
Then you have things like how the church would deal with the Antichrist
Chapter IV Antichrist is at hand: let us therefore avoid Jewish errors It therefore behoves us, who inquire much concerning events at hand, to search diligently into those things which are able to save us. Let us then utterly flee from all the works of iniquity, lest these should take hold of us; and let us hate the error of the present time, that we may set our love on the world to come: let us not give loose reins to our soul, that it should have power to run with sinners and the wicked, lest we become like them. The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches, concerning which it is written, as Enoch says, “For for this end the Lord has cut short the times and the days, that His Beloved may hasten; and He will come to the inheritance.” And the prophet also speaks thus: “Ten kingdoms shall reign upon the earth, and a little king shall rise up after them, who shall subdue under one three of the kings.” In like manner Daniel says concerning the same, “And I beheld the fourth beast, wicked and powerful, and more savage than all the beasts of the earth, and how from it sprang up ten horns, and out of them a little budding horn, and how it subdued under one three of the great horns.” Ye ought therefore to understand. And this also I further beg of you, as being one of you, and loving you both individually and collectively more than my own soul, to take heed now to yourselves, and not to be like some, adding largely to your sins,
I am deeply upset how the pre tribulational idea completely wipes out the Jewish and apostolic idea
Scripture passages like
Act 17:18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
Act 17:19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
Act 17:20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
Act 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
Why doesn’t Paul talk about the rapture in the book of acts as he does when talks about the resurrection
There are numerous other scriptural passages, early church fathers and inter testament literature with the bible being the prime source
The early church fathers were ready to face the Antichrist , are we ready to face the Antichrist or anti messiah
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is a resurrection event , think about it
The smoke screen of pre trib theology has blinded peoples minds
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
If Paul taught different than John we have two different Christianity’s
The first resurrection is the rapture.
| 2019/5/16 17:56||Profile|
| Re: |
Yes I read your post and was in agreement with what you wrote. I was trying to help and maybe didn't do it quite right but I wanted to add to your comments by showing what I believe to be the WHEN of the resurrection/rapture which I also see as the same thing.
/I am trying to argue that the idea of the Jewish ressurection of the dead and the rapture are the same things./
I believe you are correct.
/There is alot of assumptions that we make if you presume a pre tribulation rapture and fundamentally miss the Jewish idea of the resurrection which is post tribulational nature./
Yes I agree. When you lose the Jewish context, and especially the TIMING of the resurrection/rapture revealed in scripture, then you begin to have to make assumptions that were not in the minds of the Jewish human authors of scripture and the Jewish people of their day.
/I am deeply upset how the pre tribulational idea completely wipes out the Jewish and apostolic idea./
You should be in my opinion. What a hodge podge of confusion the pre-trib theory brings about even while impaling itself on the horns of a dilemma of its own making. If Paul said the dead are to be raised and the living and the dead caught up and changed at the last trumpet (I Cor 15:51-52) then how can there be a "last" trumpet at a pre-trib rapture only to be followed by another "last" trumpet seven or so years later at Christ's coming(Matt 24:31)? What does last mean? I've always been taught it means last.
The Glorious Return
29 “But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
31 And He will send forth His angels WITH A GREAT TRUMPET and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Since there are no other trumpets mentioned anywhere it seems safe to assume this is the last trumpet Paul spoke of.
The resurrection and rapture occur at the last trumpet after the tribulation of those days.
It is the time when Jewish belief held to the view that this would be the time when the Messiah appeared. Now we know it will be the day of Christ's second appearance. But it will be resurrection day which is the catching up and rapture of the saints living and dead. When Christ comes He will resurrect the dead and all saints living and once dead will be caught up to meet Him and be changed and clothed upon with immortality. After the tribulation of those days at the last trumpet.
1)Christ's second coming
2)Christ exerts His power and brings about the resurrection and rapture
3)Christ destroys the anti-Christ (II Thess 2:8)
4)Israel's final deliverance from its enemies when the saying will be brought about, "Death is swallowed up in victory" (Isa 25:8). "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" (Hosea 13:14)
These four are simultaneous events to occur at Christ's second appearance. The Jewish expectation was to one day not only be delivered from their final eschatological enemies but also be delivered from death itself on resurrection day which in the Jewish mind was on the last day - after the tribulation of those days at the last trumpet.
/The early church fathers were ready to face the Antichrist , are we ready to face the Antichrist or anti messiah./
Not in my opinion if you are planning on not having to face him because you believe you will be long gone at this time.
| 2019/5/17 8:29||Profile|
| Re: |
| 2019/5/18 14:22||Profile|
| Re: The Timing of the Resurrection|
The Timing of the Resurrection
Are you saying that Christians who die today will not be resurrected until the last day?
Yes. Jesus said that everyone that the Father has given Him will be drawn to Him and raised at the ‘last day’, not sooner. Like any Jewish believer of the time, Martha’s response shows the common expectation of Jewish believers, that her brother would rise ‘at the last day’ (Jn 11:24).
Jesus said unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha said unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
If we compare Job’s amazing expectation that he would see with his own eyes,in a real flesh and bone body, his Redeemer when His feet shall stand upon the earth, with Zechariah’s prophecy that the Messiah’s feet would stand on the Mount of Olives at the day of the Lord.
For I know that my redeemer lives, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east…
And if we see when Isaiah expected to be raised at the time of Israel’s national deliverance at the post-tribulational day of the Lord. along with all the righteous dead (Isa 25:7-8; 26:19-20).
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
LORD, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer when thy chastening was upon them. Like as a woman with child, that draws near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD. We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
This, with Daniel’s personal assurance that he would be raised at the end of the unequaled trouble when his people would at last be finally and permanently delivered out from under the cruel yoke, not only of the gentiles but of the sin that sold them (see Dan 12:1-2, 13),
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
These and several other passages show why the hope of OT believer was to be raised at the ‘last day’, as confessed by Martha. Of course they did not understood this term to mean the last day of the present earth’s existence, but the last day of this present evil age. This is the same hope that Jesus promises to those who would henceforth believe on Him (see Jn 6:39-40; 44, 54). The early church knew of no other!
John 6:39-40, 44
And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose none, but raise them up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Paul was bound in chains for the ‘hope of Israel’, which he identified as the ‘hope of the resurrection of the dead’ (see Acts 23:6; 26:6-7; 28:20). This hope has never changed to something else. Perfected union with the Lord in risen, fully perfected bodies is the ‘blessed hope’ of the body of Christ, even better understood by the fuller light of the gospel. But a better understanding does nothing to change the time established by Jesus and the many plain scriptures from both testaments.
According to scripture, a believer has already been spiritually raised, united, and sit down with Christ, waiting for the redemption of the body when the Lord shall return a second time “immediately after the tribulation of those days” to “gather together His elect” (compare Mt 24:31 with 2Thes 2:1). Until then, those who die ‘in the Lord’ (Rev 14:13) are said to ‘sleep in Christ’. Paul says that the spirits of departed saints are alive and “present with the Lord” (compare Mt 22:32; 2Cor 5:8).
It is absurd to suppose that an eternally alive, redeemed spirit, “present with the Lord”, is unconscious. Quite the contrary, a few scriptures show plainly that the redeemed in heaven are not only conscious but aware of events on earth, as in Rev 12. Consider Rev 19:10 where the heavenly messenger is a ‘brother’ from among John’s ‘fellow servants’. This is a term applied elsewhere to the prophets. So whether Daniel or some other of the prophets, this is not a description of an angel. It is one of John’s brethren.
The “spirits of just men made perfect” that are part of the ‘cloud of witnesses’ (Heb 12:1, 23) are not angels, but are ‘like’ the angels (Mt 12:25), only not yet united with the imperishable physical body that is fitted for the new creation, first for millennial rule, and then for that ultimate perfection of the new heavens and earth that will be free from the natural laws of entropy and decay. This will be no static existence, but like science’s discovery of an ever expanding universe, the scripture says of the kingdom of David’s greater son, “Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end” (Isa 9:7)
(Reggie Kelly - 2/16/19)
| 2019/5/20 13:15||Profile|
| Re: |
4 and because iniquity aboundeth they shall hate each other, and persecute each other, and deliver each other up; and then shall the Deceiver of the world appear as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands; and he shall do unlawful things, such as have never happened since the beginning of the world. 5 Then shall the creation of man come to the fiery trial of proof, and many shall be offended and shall perish; but they who remain in their faith shall be saved by the rock of offence itself. 6 And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first the sign of the appearance in heaven, then the
sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead 7 -- not of all, but as it has been said, The Lord shall come and all his saints with him; 8 then shall the world behold the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven.
It is interesting that the early church fathers never mention the fact of a rapture or a ressurection before the tribulation
They always talk about facing the antichrist
| 2019/5/21 15:22||Profile|