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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Who are the 144,000?

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docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1923


 Who are the 144,000?

An Interlude

Rev ch 7

1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,

3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”

The 144,000

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:


5 from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,

6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,

7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

The above group is followed by a great multitude seen in ch 7 that are in heaven and that have come out of the Great Tribulation.

A Multitude from the Tribulation

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,

“Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

12 saying,

“Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?”

14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat;

17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”

Then Revelation ch 14:

The Lamb and the 144,000 on Mount Zion

14 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.

3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.

4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

5 And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

Followed by a great reaping in the earth and the fall of Babylon and doom for worshipers of the beast.

Vision of the Angel with the Gospel

6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;

7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

8 And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the [e]passion of her immorality.”

Doom for Worshipers of the Beast

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”

The Reapers

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.”

16 Then He who sat on the cloud [p]swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle.

18 Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe.”

19 So the angel [t]swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God.

20 And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles

How important is the context they are presented in? Who are they and what do they represent? They have debated the identity of the 144,000 for a long time.

Please, no uncivil discussion or busting one another's chops for any reason. Just a calm, politely shared civil exchange of ideas. It can be done.

Blessings.












_________________
David Winter

 2019/4/30 19:14Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1062
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re: Who are the 144,000?


It appears the 144K represent ALL of the redeemed of Israel.
The numberless multitude represent ALL the redeemed of the gentile nations.

A second view for me is this 144K represents a special priesthood from Israel that are given access to worship before the throne forever.


_________________
Marvin

 2019/5/1 11:30Profile
davidkeel
Member



Joined: 2006/5/11
Posts: 381
West Sussex, England

 Re: Who are the 144,000?

I once heard a very good Bible teacher who said that the tribes of Dan and Ephraim are missing because of their sins of idolatry.

And this is in Hosea : Ephraim will be laid waste on the day of reckoning. Among the tribes of Israel I proclaim what is certain. ... Ephraim is oppressed, trampled in judgment, intent on pursuing idols (Hosea 5:9,11).

If idolatry is the reason then it appears they may well be genuine Tribes of Israel as some have tried to spiritualize this passage I think ?


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David Keel

 2019/5/2 13:32Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1923


 Re: Who are the 144,000?

This 144,000 are described as:

1) bondservants of God
2) sealed by God
3) singing a new song only they know
4) the ones who have not been defiled with women
5) they have kept themselves chaste
6) these are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. 7) these have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

I don't know all the answers but does their identity have to be confined to members of Israel alone? It's a pretty good description of many who have been redeemed. Maybe only a few of the redeemed really do but who does not want to follow the Lamb wherever He goes etc? Gentiles are saved by a covenant made with Israel in particular and become part of the believing commonwealth of Israel at salvation. Can this 144,000 be made up of believing Gentiles also now? I'm not preaching, just asking for opinions and any insight one can offer.

We also see, "And they overcame Him (Satan and the antichrist) by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto death (Rev 12:11)." Loving not their own lived even unto death sounds like a company of first fruit saints who will follow the Lamb wherever He goes even if it means their own physical demise.

Just wondering.


_________________
David Winter

 2019/5/7 5:37Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1944


 Re: 144,000


docs asks,

"...does their identity have to be confined to members of Israel alone?"

Certainly Not!

"...any insight one can offer."

All the descriptions you've noted fit the believer. And 144,000 is not necessarily confined to an absolute number.

 2019/5/7 7:01Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1923


 Re:

I think you are likely right and at the same time I don't believe it precludes Israel either. Many of and in Israel are yet to believe in the midst of the final time of trouble that will end the age as described in Revelation backed up by Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 24:21.

Thanks for your input.


_________________
David Winter

 2019/5/7 13:33Profile





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