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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Three Levels of Spiritual Development by Zac Poonen

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Joined: 2006/9/16
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 Re:

Thank you.

I'll try and get back on this. I'm a little nervous now. It's a spiritual endeavor.


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David Winter

 2019/4/19 20:29Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
Zac Poonen wrote: "It will be a good thing if all of us make that decision today - never to pass on anything about another that will hurt him or his reputation - and keep that decision, not just for the rest of this year but for the rest of our lives."



Brother,

I believe it is clear in his article he is referencing to the children of God and not a clear false teacher. The sin of speaking against others we do not agree with in side issues really has become epedemic in the body of Christ.

I wrote about this in a short free ebook called: Disagreements in Christian Life
https://www.amazon.com/Disagreements-Christian-Life-Greg-Gordon-ebook/dp/B07MPQL9CX/


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2019/4/20 7:05Profile
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Posts: 261
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 Re:

Greg, Zac Poonen has given innumerable fine messages. I enjoy his teaching.

What gives me such a knee jerk reaction isn't Poonen himself, but his statement about keeping silent. While I agree that gossip and slander are to be avoided, I have run into an overwhelming number of Christians who are in, or who have come out of, churches with abusive leadership. The problem is epidemic. If I didn't need an income I could spend the rest of my life ministering to these shattered hearts. The cycle of abuse and being coerced into silence "or else" is astonishing.

I really believe a huge part of the problem is the format of the contemporary church as a BUSINESS. If we met in homes, if pastors & leadership had day jobs, if we went from home to home in our meetings I believe the health & transparency of the body of believers would be so much greater. Many of those who have suffered the most whom I have prayed for/with are church EMPLOYEES.

Kind regards in Christ Jesus,
Alec


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Alec

 2019/4/20 8:37Profile
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Joined: 2006/11/26
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 Re:

Brother Alec,

I understand what you are saying, and I have also witnessed abusive leadership in the church, and I do not remain silent about it. I would encourage any child of God that is in such a church where the pastor is abusive and controlling to come out of that church. I would not hesitate to tell a brother or sister that is in a church where they are not getting fed the pure Word of God to come out of such a church.

I believe that what Zac Poonen is saying is to not be so quick to criticize a true pastor or minister that has made some mistake or who has blind spots in certain areas, but to pray for them, and if the Lord leads you to go to them privately with your concerns.


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Mike

 2019/4/20 11:13Profile
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Joined: 2011/8/20
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 Re:

All this teaching about standing for your rights against an abusive Church leadership, is from the Devil. There is no spirit of Christ is such a belief.

In my Church I have witnessed a situation. An old man who is very knowledgeable in the Bible started attending our fellowship. In our Church we encourage all to Prophesy after the main message but with a time limit. This particular old guy started sharing for 20 mins. Hence one of the brothers leading the fellowship asked him not to speak more than 5 mins and also to speak in line with the main message. Now this old guy could not take this advice and took it offensive. He went behind the back of this brother and spread gossips against him. He also challenged church leadership, he was of the belief that Church should be lead by its self (kind of democracy pattern). It resulted in so much confusions to the point of Church being split. But the Lord was merciful and prevented a split and this old man left out of frustration!

The point here is there is no proper definition of abusive leadership. Like this old man, anyone can take a simple disciple as abusive. Where do you draw the line?

Here is the Biblical way to lead with situations,
1. If the Church has an Apostle then write to him about the situation of leadership and why you find them abusive. Every Church should have an Apostle who should appoint leaders. This is a Biblical pattern for any Church, but unfortunately most Churches do not have such a pattern.
In Corinthians, a Sister wrote to Paul about the condition of the Church and that is what resulted in the letter of 1 Corinthians! So this is the perfect Biblical way to handle this situation.

2. If there is no Apostle and you are sure the Church is under the authority of Jesus then trust in Jesus and humble yourself under the leadership whom you consider abusive. If Jesus is really present in the Church then he will expose the leadership of their mistakes. Apostle Paul says Phil 3:15 - Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;

So trust in God to reveal the unchristlike attitude that the leadership has. I am not writing anything that I have not practiced. I have humbled myself trusting in God so many times and in all the case the Lord took the side of the humble.

3. Now if the Church does not have an Apostle and you are not sure whether Jesus is present in the Church then why do you even want to be in such a Church? In stead standing for your rights, leave the Church. This is what I tell the people visiting our Church, if they are not sure that Christ is in our midst then do not meet with us.


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Sreeram

 2019/4/20 21:56Profile
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Posts: 261
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 Re:

How does one begin to even answer you, Sree? You come into a discussion and (figuratively) stand on a soapbox and start giving a "sermon" devoid of any compassion & completely misunderstanding the previous dialogue, pronouncing judgments & enumerating your solutions. O, thank you, high & exalted Sree, for your incredible insights! How did I ever make it through over 50 years of terrestrial life without you?

"Do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceits." I have opted for the latter.


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Alec

 2019/4/22 18:15Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
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 Re:

Alec, did I ever refer to you in my post? My post was against the view that one has to stand for their rights, which is from world and not from Jesus. If you believe in such a worldly view then my post is for you. If I wanted to respond to you, I would have quoted anything from your past post. I am good enough with computers to do so. But I never quoted anything from your post. Which means I was not even responding to any of your views. If you still think that I was referring to you then you should be in some kind of imaginary world where everyone is attacking you!

I have put clear scriptures and personal experience to support my view. I am not sure which one has offended you. If you are offended at my view then you are only offended at scripture. I understand that not everyone is logically minded and are not scripturally strong, but it is not acceptable to use abusive language to cover ones handicap.

You have called me a fool for no reason here. I do not believe a born again Christian will post like this in a public forum to someone who is not even responding to you. I hope you will judge yourself and set things right in your life before it gets too late. I am sorry I cannot even refer to you as a brother.


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Sreeram

 2019/4/22 22:29Profile
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 Re:

SREE,

I have seen you fly off the handle with sweeping statements, blanket judgments, & wild, presumptuous conclusions not only here in this thread, but in many others on this forum. If it will help you to better understand your own folly I can cut and paste endless quotes of yours from other threads demonstrating this.

Most people on the Sermon Index forum are biblically literate, having read everything from Genesis to Revelation many, many times and with much scrutiny, yet there are some who feel that they must preach sermons to others here, endlessly quoting whole passages of Scripture. This often comes across as obnoxious and self-righteous. How about "see Psalm 119"-----you (plural) don't have to copy and paste the ENTIRE psalm!

So many here like to play amateur preacher....and how many have ever been allowed to speak from the pulpit in their home church? That should tell you something.

If one message of rebuke is enough for you to not call me "brother," then your discernment is quite lacking...little brother!

I bear you no malice.


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Alec

 2019/4/23 5:22Profile
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Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37004
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
So many here like to play amateur preacher....and how many have ever been allowed to speak from the pulpit in their home church? That should tell you something.



Brother,

Please stop speaking in this way to another brother, we are not to critique and judge each others character and walk with the Lord on the forums. I personally from my bible reading (from genesis to revelation MANY times) see truth in what Sree is sharing and there are definetly points to ponder and take aways.

If there is something that convicts, challenges or upsets you then that is fine but please do not attack the character of another to dismiss their post.

I have personally known Sree and sat beside him in church gatherings. He is an excellent brother who loves the Lord.

We are all not perfect in how we share but it is good that the body of Christ shares.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2019/4/23 6:48Profile
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 Re:

I am not convicted, challenged, or upset by any of this, but rather rolling my eyes at the incredible waste of time and endless verbiage here.

Like another fellow recently wrote, please remove my membership from the forum.


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Alec

 2019/4/23 8:23Profile





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