| Re: |
Brothers and sisters,
It is not difficult to find fault and error in one another, and that error should be addressed if it is leading the saints away from the truth.
In the Colossian letter, the Apostle Paul adressed What is known as the “Colossian Heresy”, but before he does that the emphasis that is made is on the greatness and preeminence of Christ.
We need to make the main thing the main thing, and that is not just examining the error, but it is by growing in the knowledge of Jesus Christ, seeing Him who is the truth. The light will always expose and overcome the darkness.
None of us can say that there is no fault in us, and the Lord is calling us to be of the same mind, and to correct one another in all gentleness, humility, and meekness. It is only by grace that we stand.
| 2019/4/13 8:40||Profile|
| Re: |
Greg, fair enough. I am going to leave it and here is the two reasons I will leave it.
"You speak of catholics and christians as if God even slightly sees the difference."
"Of course the majority of martyrdoms in christianity have been orthodox christians being killed by muslims in the last 100 years. Anyone who follows open doors, or VOM will understand this. So again I do not see church history clearly as catholics killing true believers"
There is simply nothing I can do with that level of ignorance. What a terrible betrayal of millions of our brothers and sisters killed by one of the most heinous satanic organizations the world has ever seen over a period of at least 1000 years. Not to mention the millions of children raped and abused by the Catholic system in the last 100 years. Brother, if you could remove my name from the forum I would appreciate that, I cannot be associated in any way with this.............bro Frank
| 2019/4/13 10:22|
| Re: |
Frank, thanks for your earlier clarification about the word “rebuke.” My concern has been that others who read these posts will understand that this is not a “feeding frenzy” (to quote from Greg’s original post) but rather brethren who love him and are deeply troubled about serious error that he is propagating these days.
Greg, you have said elsewhere that correction should be left to leaders, or words to that effect. I’m not sure I fully agree with you on that, but surely you must acknowledge that some of those who are alarmed at what you are saying are respected leaders, elders. Personally, I am dismayed that you have not taken to heart what a leader of the caliber of Ron Bailey has said to you. Please, Greg, heed your own counsel. It would be a tragedy for the founder of Sermonindex to go down in history the way, it seems, you are determined shall be the case.
| 2019/4/13 11:51||Profile|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
| Re: |
There is an accidental misquote:
“You speak of catholics and christians as if God even slightly sees the difference.”
Greg did not say this— it was from one of Martyr/ Brother Tyler’s replies.
Also, Greg does not pray to Mary or the saints nor is he encouraging others to do so.
He has been researching the early church and they seem to have believed that, after Christ came in the flesh, died, was buried, ressurrected and ascended, that now when the saints leave their tents behind they are not dead (except their bodies) and that their spirits (Philippians 1:23,24; Hebrews 12:23) are in heaven as the cloud of witnesses etc see (Hebrews 12:1)
| 2019/4/13 13:03||Profile|
| Re: |
Regarding my earlier post, I think there is some confusion in this present thread. People here may not understand that what I said (and what Frank said) has little to do with the original post here. What I said can only be understood in the context of the lengthy Facebook discussion on Greg Gordon's book on Ignatius of Antioch.
Ignatius was the first major proponent of the monarchial bishop system, which the Scriptures do not endorse.
| 2019/4/13 14:16||Profile|
| Re: Are These Christian Bloggers Tearing Down the Body of Christ? by Greg Gordon|
Greg, Today one of the Blogger’s I believe you may have been referencing Posted a response directly addressing the topic of your original thread. Most of the responses you received here ended up becoming a tense debate between you and another member which did not address the topic of Bloggers. If you have not done so I would encourage you to visit the wartburgpress.com site to see how they responded. Again as far as division in the Body the church continues to shoot themselves in the foot. Silencing the voices of those who wish to bring transparency by calling out the messes at Harvest Bible Chapel, Willowcreek, Mars Hill, SGM, and I could name several others is more than appropriate it is absolutely critical in this day of declension and evil. The church is not a “ light on a hill” if it fails to even measure up to worldly standards. As I mentioned, wholesale greed, pedophiles, misappropriation of funds, cult like control, emotional abuse are all too evident. At Harvest Bible there is now a Class Action Lawsuit being brought by the members of the that church against the so-called leadership. In Corporate America the perpetrators of these offenses would be in jail! If one follows the Bloggers that have been instrumental in bringing this garbage to light one admires their courage to take on the Establishment at great cost to themselves. Will the established church now join those secular policitically correct voices who wish to silent dissent? Again, hurrah for the courage of those Bloggers, or anyone calling themselves Christian, who are bold to speak. If you, or Sermon Index takes a stance of silencing the dissenters than I to need to have my name removed as a member also. To answer the question you posed, ‘ are these bloggers tearing down the Body of Christ,’ I say an emphatic NO. The church has done a good enough job of that without Bloggers.
| 2019/4/16 7:42|
| Re: |
//At Harvest Bible there is now a Class Action Lawsuit being brought by the members of the that church against the so-called leadership//
“To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded?”
1 Corinthians 6:7
| 2019/4/16 9:38||Profile|
| Re: Brethren |
While it’s important to provide loving correction it’s equally important to do it properly. Correction for correction sake is, at best, a misguided attack.
If a person “wants” to correct another member of the body of Christ, the spirit of it should itself be in question. Any corrective address that is not born of and led by God will only serve to tear down and not build up the body of Christ. We are implicitly called to build up-
Sometimes we have “good” intentions but that doesn’t necessarily mean they are “God” intentions...
While it’s obvious that the body of believers has a sort of autoimmune deficiency it is also obvious that most are ill equipped to address the issue as is often observed when an attempt to correct a member takes place.
This is not to say we shouldn’t “defend the faith” as it was handed down to us, tho some have taken this mandate to mean we are somehow licensed to attack other members. This itself is clearly error and itself subject to correction.
The scriptures are replete with examples of proper correction, brought about by God at the time of His choosing.
So “if” we have observed an error and are compelled to issue a correction we must first go to the Lord and pray/intercede not only for the member in error but for ourselves to be of the right spirit,... meek, humble, lowly, loving
It’s been observed we can be “right” regarding an issue but go about a corrective action completely devoid of the Holy Spirit - meaning it’s just our flesh and actually does more harm:(
It’s also to be noted that WE ALL HAVE BEEN IN ERROR at one time or another and in many cases, will be again as we work out our salvation.
One thing that seems common in biblical correction is they address the issue and not the person... “play the ball - not the man”. This allows Holy Spirit to do His work in the hearts and spirits of those in error. It seems oftentimes we want to “be” Holy Spirit and while it may or may not be a bad thing to want to,... it’s always a bad thing to try to be Him.... He is really good at being God and doesn’t need us to do His job for Him 🙏🏻😇
| 2019/4/16 9:47||Profile|
| Re: I am one. |
A little confession.
The last several decades God has stirred my heart toward confronting the evil that attacks his people and the lost.
I am not naturally a confronter, I am passive. As I came to recognize the gift of God in me, I recognized my resilience to confrontation was God given and anointed.
I recognized too that I was able to delve into area or deal with difficult topic or even scenarios with very thick-skin. This too was of God.
I enjoy reading discernment ministry blogs and articles, I enjoy and thank God for men and women who see what I see, and are bold to speak up about it.
With God's grace and humility, I am what I am and there is nothing to be ashamed of.
So what is good, boldness, confidence, wisdom, anointing I stand against evil for Jesus sake and love for his people.
But with all of that, what Fletcher said applies even more to me. I have made every one of the errors mentioned and more so. In reflection on a past debate I needed to use a scalpel, I preferred the chainsaw. So, I used the chainsaw.
My choice was wrong, therefore my method is intrinsically wrong and my outcome is also wrong. All that God has given so that I might act in accordance with his plan and purpose I didn't use, instead I used the carnal 'other'.
This is the flaw of discernment ministries, bloggers who find an error in a ministry and resort to unbiblical attitudes and correctives which cannot and do not honor God.
It is right and good that those who discern and confront the errors which arise among us as saints, are also reminded to 'submit yourselves to one another' as Paul entreats. None of us are above reproof and correction.
I don't read anyone saying on this thread "yea lets get rid of discernment ministries, bloggers who expose error and explain truth". No, but if that man or woman has ventured beyond scripture, they are subject to the same reproof as they give.
If you are going to give reproof, you had better expect to get some back...because you too are being sanctified out of your sinful self.
I am appreciative of Frank, I agree with him on the subject of refusing to cave to RCC doctrines slowing creeping into evangelical Christianity.
But, remember, if a few men are debating and even correcting another brother (whether Greg is in error or not, is not my point) 47 others do not need to join the fray and begin adding their corrections and reproofs. This tactic takes on the appearance of sharks circling the waters after smelling blood.
This is also the wisdom of scripture in going to your brother in private, then with two or three others...then publically.
Gregs article is spot on and needful for at least me.
| 2019/4/16 10:38||Profile|
| Re: |
That seems a wise take on things Gloryandgrace. Thank you.
I read some of the relies at wartburg press and more than a few were saying things about and painting pictures of Greg that simply aren't true and are far from Greg's heart in my opinion. They are just going by what someone else wrote which I suppose is one of the main dangers Greg was trying to address.
| 2019/4/16 10:56||Profile|