| Re: |
Regarding this discussion, I want to be very careful. I know that I come down hard on things; however, isn't it fair to say that there are many discussions in this forum that I DO NOT even discuss. There is much that I keep to myself. There is much that I do that is not good. There is much being redeemed. I appreciate the fact that Greg is trying to get us to flex our discernment muscles and throw punches in the right direction. We do not wrestle against flesh and blood, we wrestle against the enemy.
However, to make wide generalizations and cast the whole gamut of Christian bloggers under the "merciless judge" label is dangerous. Not all Christian bloggers do this. Not all Christians go around slandering others. It needs to be warned against, but not all are guilty.
I also firmly believe that I have every right to call out a false teaching, a false prophet, or other things. Case in point: No one here has any problem with calling out Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism. Not a soul would debate whether or not he was a false prophet. Would you say the same if he was living right now? Or is death the gateway for this discussion. Do we need to wait until John MacArthur is dead to find out whether he was true or false. Should we wait until Joel Osteen is dead? What about you, Greg. Should we only wait to evaluate you until after you're long gone? No, I think we should have these discussions now. Or else, we are merely affirming everything everyone says until after death.
Finally, I think we should do exactly what Greg is saying: pray for these men. Humble ourselves and appeal for them, by name and specifically. If we leave a discussion and everyone feels great about how dumb someone is and justified that they have identified a false teacher, then we've got problems. We need to finish out the process and pray for them and minister to them if we can. Our speech should be merciful and pitied toward those who are erring. Yet I will say this, if you have a leaky faucet, the solution to the problem is not to stop drinking water. Fix the leak. If we are being too harsh, the solution isn't to stop identifying false prophets and their teachings. It is to have these discussions based upon a desire for their restoration and/or salvation.
| 2019/4/9 14:35||Profile|
| Re: |
I think part of the problem is how one defines “false prophet.” For example, some folks think any preacher with a charismatic bent is a false prophet, because they believe somewhat differently about certain teachings in the Bible.
I left behind charismatic churches I attended because of what I considered a lot of nonsense- however my friends who still attend and the pastors are not false prophets. A tad goofy- yes. False prophets- no.
| 2019/4/9 15:34||Profile|
| Re: |
"I think part of the problem is how one defines “false prophet.” See below.
"Early liturgies of the church included phrases asking God to help us, through the intercessions of Mary and all the other saints. To me this is not disqualifying."
| 2019/4/9 23:57|
| Re: |
Frank: Good to hear from you again. I may have been out of the loop but it seems like I have not seen you post in a while. I could use some clarification. Where did your last quote come from? Not sure I follow.
| 2019/4/10 11:36||Profile|
| Re: |
I recently saw a social media post denouncing the actions of a very prominent pastor and his wife. It had to so with the pastor's wife laying on the grave of Wigglesworth in order to somehow obtain anointing from him. I am sure the pastor's wife was somehow bringing up the idea that the bones of Moses brought a dead man back to life again. I believe the pastor's wife to be in error, especially when the anointing of God is to be found in intimacy with God through His Holy Spirit. But her rightness or error is not the most important point. It is sad that the poster was decrying the action publicly, slandering the name and reputation of the pastor and his wife. Gossip is gossip regardless of whether the person being talked about was right or wrong. I found it ironically sad that the same person later posted the statement that we should never gossip because it is really slander.
Greg is right in my opinion. Church discipline, including the calling out of error, is something that is assigned Biblically to eldership and apostleship. Leaders should spend much time in prayer and listening to the Holy Spirit before they publicly denounce one in error.
Scripture teaches us that when we see a brother overtaken in a fault, we should go to that brother in a spirit of meekness and seek to see that brother restored.
A heart that is quick to decry and denounce instead of go into the closet to weep and pray is a heart that has not been touched by the love of God and does not understand Him and His ways.
Reproof and rebuke are between the guilty person and the reprover or rebuker, not between the reprover and others who are not involved. I wonder what would happen if we, when we think someone is in error, would go to that person and seek with meekness and wisdom to restore them to truth rather than denouncing their error.
I know a local pastor who stepped over into error where grace is concerned and began to openly espouse what many are calling hyper-grace. It split his church and caused no small stir. He has been denounced and put to open shame in the community of believers in the area. People would run into him here and there and attack him for his error. But one local leader had more wisdom. He met with the pastor and tried to encourage him and establish relationship. When the pastor finally let his guard down he asked, "Well do you agree with my doctrine?" This wise leader said, "absolutely not. I think you are wrong, but I love you all the same." From this relationship has come some healing and restoration to the pastor in error. He had been so hurt as a pastor by legalistic people that he had jumped into the opposite ditch and gotten into error. He is still not completely out of his error, but restoration has begun and this wise leader has actually been able to share truth at a conference event presented by the pastor.
My point is this, the love of God must by the driving force in everything we do. His ultimate goal is that He be allowed to live through us so that we are completely governed and motivated by God's love and desire. We are to be like Him.
When rebuke of a person is necessary, when public exposure is warranted, it should come through leadership that has the heart of God and is anointed by Him to do so.
| 2019/4/10 11:52||Profile|
| Re: be slow to judge|
Sniffing out a false teacher?
A couple of things to consider
1. The scriptures handle the subject by naming the false-teacher with various 'identities'.
The Charlatan/Exploiter who make merchandise of the people of God.
The false prophet/teacher who have their own revelations/teachings that supersede the scriptures and nullify God's commands.
The skeptic/mocker who calls into question the word of God in order to replace it with his own teachings.
The Tickler who purposely seeks advantage by telling people what they want to hear and censoring those who interfere with that.
The seducer who use carnal means to entice the people if God away from God's commands, they seek to please the flesh of their hearers and nullify the cross.
No doubt others can be mentioned.
2. It may be observed that those mentioned above are often a mixed bag, the exploiter may also seduce, and the false teacher may also mock and bring into question received teachings.
So, when developing your 'criteria' you will find one criteria doesn't always fit all teachers.
The 7 point statement of faith of a Church or ministry website can often be contradicted by the locus of that preachers sermons.
3. Which doctrines are essential which are not. You will notice very soon this different with different ministries.
Some will damn you off to hell because you speak in tongues. Why?
It follows a chain (sometimes)
prophecy/tongues=extra biblical revelation=rejection of biblical authority=rejection of the bible itself=renegade/rebellious person=unsubmitted to God and the Church=probably unsaved.
So you may have a non-essential stance on tongues where someone else has put your salvation on the line by way of a 'slippery slope' line of thinking.
Since the bible has no stand-alone doctrines, all of them interlace with others, our judgments of one thing are often approved by 'other biblical connections' and at times condemned by those same 'other biblical connections'.
To me, those that simply broad brush a group or type or method in order to easily condemn them are harmful to the body.
| 2019/4/10 12:07||Profile|
| Re: |
Hi Travis, it comes from Greg along with a rejection of sola scriptura. He has been rebuked by men like Ron Bailey and Allan Halton and Jose Munez, leader of Jesus Crew, himself an ex Catholic like me........bro Frank
"I found it true in my life when based on "scripture alone" without any help from what the church history or apostles believed I came to weird conclusions on my own." Greg.
Ron Bailey to Greg Gordon on his book on Ignatias.....
The first chapter is sheer fiction. Much is claimed for Ignatius that he does not even claim himself. The notion that Ignatius was the child ‘set in the midst’ is a fairytale. To have used these fables as the opening chapter creates a poor foundation for what follows. When we build on other foundations than the scriptures we open the way to every shade of gullibility.
Neither is ‘bishops in cities’ a ‘given’. If you read the epistles through the lens of Ignatius’ incipient Roman Catholicism you will certainly find it.
| 2019/4/10 14:21|
| Re: |
It is just me or are there folks here that are taking cheap shots at Greg?
The subject was concerning the unwarranted and un-scriptural-ness of attacks and divisiveness of various internet bloggers.
Maybe we should retitle the thread "take cheap shots here"
so we can attack the author. This kind of nonsense validates Greg's article.
Greg doesn't deserve that kind of treatment
by the way...sola scriptura is not violated when a man says "I need help interpreting scripture".
If Greg locked up this thread it might keep some of us from sinning.
| 2019/4/10 14:48||Profile|
| Re: |
You need to speak to what Greg is saying, rather than sycophantically defending what is clearly unbiblical Marvin. I merely quoted Greg's words, he is more than capable of defending whether he believes it is okay to pray to the dead or Mary or whether he gives validity to tradition in the same vain as Scripture. These are not small things and hysterically calling for the shutting down of the thread is not appropriate Marvin. Remember, there was this little thing called the Reformation.............bro Frank
| 2019/4/10 16:18|
| Re: |
Church history IS what tells you about the reformation. We ought to go back to church history and see what things were taught. It's not like after men who were well respected back in those days die that suddenly everything they said is useless.
Secondly, please brother, I appeal to you, the attitude you have is poor. You are treating us like dogs. We are your brothers and equals with you. Sure we might disagree, but you don't have to treat us like your enemies. You have presented no evidence or case that is remotely coherent. Instead you are giving short snippets of quotes. How can we judge on that? How can we hear you if you won't stop speaking in whispers?
I am sorry, but this is exactly what Greg was warning us about.
| 2019/4/11 1:04||Profile|