"It is pretty hard to really speak conclusively when we quote articles trying to demonize someone and do not speak to the actual invidual or watch recordings in context." "Whether he fully holds to the Full Godhead and manhood of Jesus Christ is a question that has to be asked, perhaps those who are accusing strongly on this thread can take the time to email their ministry with that specific question?"Thank you Greg.
I appreciate what Greg said and I heartily agree. Yet a point of discerning should be mentioned, not in retracting what I agreed to, but to clarify. A 7 point statement of faith found on almost all Christian websites...some have 10, others 11, but overall, they all say the same thing. This is good for a start but it's not the end of our discernment. When various preachers handle the subjects of Kenosis, the trinity, original sin etc. their sermons can greatly deviate from their simple statement of faith. In short, contradictory messages are given out. So, one can say "they're orthodox" but listening to their sermons..."They're not orthodox."When a sermon or a series of lectures are given and they begin to greatly deviate from orthodox Christianity, they cannot be said to be orthodox no matter what their statement of faith may say. Word of Faith preachers have done this for decades. Remember too, a great many of these hot-shot ministers will never answer directly any requests for clarification, nor will they respond back to you. You are too small and of too little importance to matter to them. Some it may be will respond and that is great. It's important to note that power preachers are not in their positions because of orthodoxy, but in many case there because they are not in orthodoxy, they are there because they fill a need with a kind of people.
I don't agree with many of these preachers teach, but why is that view "dangerous" and "heresy"?Without knowing the term Kenosis or what these men teach on the subject, i quite have the same view..I don't think Jesus was omnipresent when he is on earth. Is the baby Jesus omnipotent? either he is and just withhold it or not that time is i think is not a big issue..Actually Jesus on the flesh, demonstrate more the power of God. It's like having limitations yet having to fulfill being sinless and perform miracles.As Zac Poonen said, Jesus walking on the water if not a miracle at all, unless he did it by the power of the Holy Spirit..
Again,The danger of poor understanding of Kenosis is the application for us. The belief is that we should be able to do everything that Jesus did. EVERYTHING. I have had first-hand encounters, discussions, debates, etc with guys who believe that Jesus did not have His deity from His birth until after the resurrection.This is a HUGE deal. They claim that I should be able to heal everyone, prophesy over everyone, discern everything, etc, etc, etc IF I am truly walking in faith. They teach that the degree you are able to do that is the degree in which you are filled with the Spirit.I am not going to argue against Zac Poonen, but we need to be really careful. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God. If a man performs a miracle, it is by the power of God that it happens. So to say that what Jesus did couldn't be a miracle if His deity caused it is splitting a fine hair. Jesus, as God, walked on water. It's not a miracle. Jesus as God in the flesh (and the Bible says that God was manifested in the flesh), did it through the Holy Spirit, therefore it is a miracle? God isn't grappling with Himself here. The Trinity is of one Mind, not many.Jesus forgave sins. Can YOU do that? Can YOU redeem a man or woman who has sinned by your pardon? Can YOU be transfigured here and now? No. We can do none of those things. I don't care if you submit every second of every day to the Holy Spirit and believe everything the Bible says perfectly. You have not the authority to do it.This very core issue of authority is one of the reasons why there was a reformation in the first place. The papal powers had usurped the very authority of Christ for their own, distributed it to their cronies and made everyone else 2nd-class Christians. This same thing is creeping up today. It makes me sick.
Here is a link to a video where Bill Johnson is preaching.https://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=15854Sorry it isn't on youtube or something, but just listen to the whole thing.
The deity of Jesus Christ is not a light matter that Jesus was both fully god and fully man is one of the most fundamental things in Christianity it makes us different from all the cults The reason the whole kenotic Christ issue is relevant is that it puts people like Todd white and bill Johnson into the cult like category as denying any fundamental doctrine.Also a teacher may have the fundamental orthodox statements on there website that does not mean that they abide by those statements as what they teach and in there literature may go against that. For over 300 hundread years Christian fought doctrines such as Arianism , ebonites, montanism , modalism Just because some of these early heresies are being dressed up in a new disguise. Kenosism is a heresy that dates from the early 19th century Can't we contend earnestly for the faith that was once given unto the saints. The problem is with these ministries Jesus does not get the glory men do .
Honest question...from your understanding, why do the apostles continuously make a clear distinction between God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ in their writings ?
JFW,To avoid the Oneness heresy. What if they didn't make a distinction? You'd end up with theology that stated that God the Father died on the cross. Definitely not what we want.The Trinity is One, distinct, different, and the same.
Dominic-I think Bill J and Todd W likely believe the same thing about the kenosis as mainstream Christianity. They just take the APPLICATION way further than is warranted. They do not think Jesus was not divine in the flesh, they just would say he divested himself of his “Omni” attributes while in the flesh. If you can find some proof that either of them think that Jesus gave up his actual deity while he was in the flesh, please provide that proof. But they use the idea of kenosis to compare Jesus to us because we do not have access to the “Omni” attributes either. The problem with that idea is that Jesus was sinless which allowed him to walk in perfect communion with the Farher and NEVER quenched the Holy Spirit. However, bottom line, we can indeed be filled with the same Holy Spirit that filled Jesus and we should operate as if that is actually true, and we should do so far more often than we actually do.
Hi Havok: Jurgen Moltmann wrote a book called the Crucified God. Moltmann declares Jesus being fully God, was crucified not only as a man but as God too. God taking death into himself. I read this about 15 years ago, very few folks are reflective enough in their studies to raise even the question of God being crucified. He's a liberation-theologian, no doubt due to his prison camp experiences that framed the beginning of his Christian walk. I do not agree with his final conclusions of a crucified God, but I did gain some great insights of the cross from his book. I'm not recommending it for the average Christian, but those who are mature in their faith with a good grasp on central doctrines may be taught some good thing as I was. I believe a 'crucified God' is abhorrant, and so is Kenosis in the way Jesus divinity is minimized or in some cases thought to have been 'attained'. When you have derivative ministries who have taken their cues from W.O.F. teachers it is no wonder they pick up these theological errors in support of other doctrines they preach. This is the crux of course, Kenosis by itself is like an engine sitting on blocks, all that potential and no way to use it. But Kenosis is not a stand alone doctrine, its real usage is to empower other doctrines or teachings that the preacher is trying to convey.