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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Does all praise and worship music in church glorify God or does it glorify men

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JFW
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1192
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: Does all praise and worship music in church glorify God or does it glorify men

brother Dominic,

A couple of weeks ago, while singing a very popular song at church (not going to name the song- but have sang it many many times over the past few years) there was somewhat of a “matrix” moment where the Lord broke into my “worship” stopping it in its tracks and directing my attention to the words themselves, more specifically asking me what was the subject and object of the sentences being sung... to my discredit it took 3 full pages/stanzas and allot of grace before my eyes could see it- tho when it did come into focus, it was quite disturbing because the song was all about us!!
To my dismay, standing there shocked and speechless, looking around finding everyone singing, worshipping, arms raised, big smiles it became clearer and ever more disturbing.... how? How could we have all missed this for so long ? How could we have made ourselves the subject and object of our worship and God only the means and no one noticed or said anything??? How could we be sooo deceived??? How did we get here???
As all these (and more) questions are swirling through my mind, I heard the Lord speak as clear as I’ve ever heard Him....
He said “Narcissistic Christianity”
To say I was stunned would be a gross understatement, it was shocking, saddening, scary, and yet revealing.... it left me in awe of how oblivious we are to our own absurdity and just how patient He is, not wanting any to perish but all to come unto repentance-
This experience has left no small impression, especially coming in a season of discipline which I have only experienced once before (at conversion).

After telling my wife what had just happened, she searched for that particular phrase during the break with no matching results-
After inquiring of the Lord what that phrase meant, an image appeared in my mind of a big shinny silver modern electric bullet train, a (phallic) tribute to mans virility, packed full of people and goods speeding hurriedly past a loading/docking station and headed in the other direction a lone donkey with a lone passenger both with their head tilted slightly downwards traveling at a donkeys pace-
After meditating on this, it occurred to me that the two are opposed to each other in that tho they are both modes of travel (vehicles) where one is the result of mans independence,... designed and built by him to meet his needs in the fashion and time of his choosing. This is the result of man placing himself above his creator, no longer content to allow his old fashioned, outdated daddy the pleasure of providing for and directing the steps of life in faithful love... rather he turned to another who had seduced him by making him the object and subject and his needs the purpose of all fulfillment. This resulted in an intoxicating effect of pursuing the next level of attainment,...of fulfillment,... requiring a mad rush of energy towards an unreachable destination of immortality and meaning- all while justifying itself as a means to an ends tho never questioning the ends - only citing the contrivance of grandeur as suitable experience itself. Luxury and the endless pursuit of its promises unfulfilled. Vanity !

While the other is clearly one whom is content, not to seek the pleasure of self but of his Father,... believing in his Father’s benevolence. Trusting and obeying his Fathers commands even tho they lead him into deep mortifications,... not seeking the fulfillment that comes from fellowship with the world and its goods but is satisfied by his Fathers watch, his Fathers word directing his steps amidst all the ridicule, humiliation and defeat the world’s wisdom can muster to throw at him, seeking to turn him from the narrow path of his Fathers word to the broad way of the world. Yet he has to agenda of his own so he doesn’t need to travel quickly to arrive at some special place at some specific time, he has no plans to build a life of his own apart from his Father so he has no need to labor and toil sacrificing to those ends, he has no need to lie to himself to justify his actions deceiving himself as actions are not his own. He has no need to learn songs but only sings the songs his Father places in his heart, the world doesn’t know these songs nor do they their object but this doesn’t make the sound any less pleasing to the author and finisher :)


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Fletcher

 2019/6/8 9:00Profile
rufnrust
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Joined: 2010/1/9
Posts: 239
Indiana

 Re: Does all praise and worship music in church glorify God or does it glorify men

I hope it is safe to point out that there are several possible categories our songs can fall into.
Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your hearts to the Lord.

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

I have always taught the children I work with that there are songs of intimate worship where we address the Lord personally and adore Him. Then songs of testimony where we declare to the heavens and the earth what the Lord has done for us. (honoring the Lord through this). Then there are songs of declaration where we declare to the heavens and the earth (this means EVERYBODY) that our God is Awesome King etc... Then songs of thanks...

From what I have read so far it looks like 'It is well with my soul' could be in trouble for being to much about us.

Rusty


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Russell

 2019/6/8 15:26Profile
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1787
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

How do we know that some modern worships songs are worshiping the Jesus of the bible as they are so vague or the God of the bible


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Dominic Shiells

 2019/6/8 16:16Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5319
NC, USA

 Re:

I guess you could take the songwriters at their word. Who do you think their songs are about- buddha?

I agree with ruf- “It is well with my soul” is awfully self centered. There are a lot of “I’s” and “me’s” in Amazing Grace as well.


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Todd

 2019/6/8 18:39Profile
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1787
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

Joel Houston who wrote the song believes in evolution
https://www.christiantoday.com/article/hillsongs-joel-houston-clarifies-views-on-evolution-after-so-will-i-lyrics-spark-debate/129864.htm

The thing is when we talk about something like amazing grace

We have verses such I once was lost but now I see

But there are some modern songs that there is no way to verify as people do not use the bible for inspiration.

It would be great if songs were biblically based but they are not worship songs.


Romans 1
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: note

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: note

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; note

10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. note

13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. note

14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. note

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: note

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. note

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; note note

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: note

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. note

Matt 24
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

What worries is me the most about worship is that most of the false doctrines such as the kenotic Christ and other doctrines from places such as bethel , elevation church and others is spread through osmosis through there music

Ezekiel 28
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. note note note

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more

The thing is the devil was the worship leader in heaven

I am also against singing dead hymns that are dead and purely on the lyrics

It is really ironic that Christian music used to be alot more creative as there used to be so many different instruments it seems limited to things to just a guitar, bass , drums and piano.

If I cannot tell the difference between a worldly song and a worship song. What is the point ?
When we are worshiping , how do know we are worshiping the Jesus of the scriptures and that it is true Christology and it is not idolatry.

I would also agree that worship music is narsacisstic but the bible predicts that
Timothy 3
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, note

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. note note


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Dominic Shiells

 2019/6/9 5:48Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5319
NC, USA

 Re:

He says that God created man out of the dust; he seems to believe in natural selection in species which is undeniable but stops short of espousing macroevolution (one species turning into another).

There are millions of Christians who believe just like him and such belief does not disqualify him from writing a worship song.

Should Calvinists listen to worship songs written by Wesley? Should non-calvinists listen to songs written by Calvinists? The answer is obvious.

The popular worship chorus "They Will know We are Christians by our Love" was penned by a Roman Catholic priest during the hippie movement in the 60s. Should we sing it?


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Todd

 2019/6/9 9:06Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1967


 Re: Does all praise and worship music in church glorify God or does it glorify men



Q. Does all praise and worship music in church glorify God or does it glorify men?

A. https://youtu.be/IpLvk_0-PAc

 2019/6/9 10:54Profile





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