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Discussion Forum : General Topics : A Costly Neglect by Reggie Kelly

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 Re:

Of course the idea of two peoples of God is completely contrary to the Christian faith. There's no dispute there. The writer of the article doesn't believe in two peoples of God. It must suprise some to find out that many who believe Israel and the Jewish nation still have a future in Christ are not going the way of Darby and Scofield. It's many times I guess a erroneous guilt by association type of thing.


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David Winter

 2019/3/15 11:00Profile
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 Re:

Yes David but it’s the idea that God is currently dealing differently with a group of people because of their race. Those days have passed. We are now in the New Covenant.

That does not mean that we don’t pray and care for the Jewish people, just like we should be praying and caring for Chinese and Hindus and Muslims.


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Todd

 2019/3/15 12:10Profile
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 Re:

God is currently dealing differently with a group of people because of their race?

Can you elaborate as to what you are speaking of?


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David Winter

 2019/3/15 12:27Profile
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 Re:

I’m not saying that- I thought you and Reggie believed that.


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Todd

 2019/3/15 14:22Profile
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 Re:

I'm of the opinion, along with Reggie, that the doctrine of two peoples of God has been as damaging to the body of Christ as the early rapture theory that accompanies it. If there are two separate peoples of God, one part of the body of Christ and one not part of that body, though both are saved by the same Savior and the same atonement then what it has always meant to be part of the body of Christ has been altered at its very foundation.


Meanwhile, if the Jewish nation and its people do not come by way of the cross they won't be coming to the kingdom of God. What God has required of others will be required of them.


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David Winter

 2019/3/15 16:56Profile
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 Re:

David you wrote earlier in this thread (or you may have been quoting Reggie)
“Does this "end" mean Israel reached the zenith of God's purposes for it and is now to be viewed as just any other nation and is therefore to be placed in the prophetically non relevant category? Will the still outstanding promises made to them be fulfilled or have they been forever given to someone else? Does God's word go there or does the replacement tradition of men take us there? This is part of the whole debate and not just whether the temple system ended.”

This seems to be implying that God has something for Israel because they are Israel (ie Jewish).

If that is not what is implied then I must be missing something.


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Todd

 2019/3/15 17:23Profile
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 Re:

Ok but I don't have time to respond right now. Im off to church for a special Fri night meeting. I will get back as soon as possibly I can. More meetings tomorrow and Sun as our congregation as a whole will be studying Stephen the martyr.


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David Winter

 2019/3/15 18:23Profile
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No rush David- especially given what you are doing. Be blessed!


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Todd

 2019/3/15 19:39Profile
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 Re: TMK

I believe that although the church participates in the spiritual blessings of the Abrahamic promises, Israel still possesses the ancient promises and will have them fulfilled to her at a future time of national salvation, restoration to the ancient land, and rebuilding of Jerusalem. Those future promises correspond to all that other Scriptures teach about premillennialism.

I don't believe when Christ returns He is going to abandon history by destroying everything that exists and going straight to the eternal state. God is going to clean up the scene of the crime so to speak and manifest His salvation and blessings in history before moving on. History is where Adam's original crime of rebellion and self reliance occurred. The Hebrew patriarchs and prophets and average Hebrew believer knew nothing of a coming kingdom that would be heavenly in nature only and forsake the earth. God is going to make a difference ON THE EARTH before moving on. Fulfillment in the eternal state only does not do justice to God's purpose of vindicating Himself among the nations of this earth. And even in the eventual eternal state there will be a new heavens and EARTH. The Hebrews never knew the kingdom of God as some far away heavenly realm divorced from anything earthly.

If the Jewish people are going to be used as the instruments to mediate these Messianic blessings to the world in that day after Christ's return then why would other Gentile parts of the body complain? If one part of the body is honored isn't the whole body honored? Land promises have been so spiritualized as to make them unrecognizable to the original Hebrew author's intent. Jesus didn't say the kingdom will not be restored to Israel. He basically said not now and not at this time.

Israel's choice to be the head of the nations will be a thousand year demonstration in the sight of the nations of God's sovereign right to elect those whom He chooses to elect without having to consult anyone regarding His choice. If Israel's election offends people then it was intended to do so. It mitigates against the natural man and his earthly view of who should be chosen and why. And these will not be secular Jews who will be honored in this way. They will be full brothers and sisters in Christ who have come the way of the cross as all others have been required to do so. So if a portion of the body of Christ is to become head of the nations what is wrong with this group of fellow believers in Christ becoming the head of the nations? Gentiles have been partaking of these blessings for almost two thousand years. Why should it bother them to see the beginning of a a long promised fulfillment of the covenant they as Gentiles were allowed to become part of?

None of this destroys the equality of everyone who is in Christ. It means a certain group among the redeemed have been ELECTED for a special honor. That begs the question, what will be the make up of this people. Zechariah 3:12-13 says:

12 I will leave in your midst a meek and humble people, and they shall trust in the name of the Lord.

13 The remnant of Israel shall do no unrighteousness and speak no lies, nor shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth;

The main characteristic of Israel in that day shall be contriteness and humility after their final time of trouble they will have passed through (Daniel 12:1; Matt 24:21) and been saved out of. In their contriteness, under the leadership of their long ascended but now returned Messiah (who Himself is the Suffering Servant), they will humbly become the chief servant to the nations. It was this their very own Messiah who said if you want to be considered the greatest then become the servant of all. Their exaltation and honor in that day will be because they will be the CHIEF SERVANTS to the nations as the knowledge of the Lord covers the earth like the waters cover the sea.

The nations rage and the people imagine a vain thing against Israel basically because they are quarreling with God's right to chose whom He wills to choose. The over spiritualization of obviously physical promises of land etc. is another way of getting softly around God's election by couching it in spiritual sounding phrases. Meanwhile, none of God's promises to a certain group of His elect has anything to do whatsoever with "exalting one group above the others." To argue this is a way of arguing with God's choice in election.

I like very much the idea of God cleaning up history before moving on to the eternal state. If God has chosen one specific people and nation to be instrumental in this then why dwell on the conflict this brings (the nations and even parts of the body of Christ rage) instead of eagerly anticipating the world wide blessings that will flow out of this choice?


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David Winter

 2019/3/21 12:49Profile





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