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twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1930
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Sreeram:

Thank you for your reply. I was never implying that the law was not holy. However, according to Hebrews, the law had only a shadow of something that was to come and not the very image of the thing. Paul says in Romans that the law was just and holy and pure. Of course it is. It came from God. Nothing from God could be any different. The crux is the purpose of the law. Paul says in Romans 7 that we have become dead to the law by the body of Christ. It likens this death to the law like a marriage that is dissolved when one spouse dies. It means we are now free to be married to another. Paul in 2 Corinthians 3:7 says that the law, and specifically that part of the law that was written on stones (the ten commandments was the only part of the law thus written) was a ministration of death. He then says that if the ministration of death was glorious, how much more life through the Spirit.

The point is that the law was never meant to be kept as a way of being right with God. While we were in the flesh, the law only ministered death to us. "Sin that it might become exceeding sinful" "When the law came, sin revived and I died." The law was to reveal God's holiness to us in part, but sufficient to condemn us all. The law ministered death through condemnation, showing us that our own righteousness born through our own efforts was totally useless in trying to be right with God. It was a schoolmaster in that it taught us our own insufficiency and pointed us to Him. He was witnessed through the law and prophets. Romans 3:21-26 says that the law was not against the promises of God. The law pointed me to the promise of faith that was to come. But it was only necessary until the seed should come. He came. No schoolmaster is necessary any more.

I do have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of Ephesians 2:15-16. Paul writes in Colossians 2:14 that the handwriting of ordinances was against us and this is what Jesus took out of the way, nailing it to the cross.

I am not at all saying that the law is unholy or unrighteous. It is holy. It is righteous. I am absolutely and unequivocally saying that the law is not binding upon us as believers. But before you cast me as a heretic, please do not take on statement without the rest. Through the rebirth I take on the nature of Christ. I do not kill, not because the law is binding upon me. I do not kill because killing is not the character and nature of Christ, whose I am. If the law is binding, I am bound to keep it. If I become like Jesus, I will think, feel, and act like Him, the originator of the law. I am not bound by the law. I am transformed into the image of Christ and I don't even have life in myself anymore. He lives through me, and as such He keeps His own laws. (Grace teaches us that denying worldly lusts we now live soberly and righteously in this present world). His empowerment makes me keep the law by nature, not by edict.

You see, now I have His motives, His thoughts, His emotions. Much superior to having his ordinances on a piece of paper. This is why Hebrews says the new covenant is a superior covenant and why He abolished the old to make way for the new.

One more thing to consider. Scripture tells us that the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. The law was external ordinances written on paper and stone and delivered for me to try to keep. But it was with my carnal mind and carnal effort that I tried to keep the law. So all of my efforts to keep the law, to be holy, by my own efforts were enmity against God because the came from my carnal mind. Paul tells us in Galatians the fruit of the Spirit and the works of the flesh. Carnal ordinances only strengthen sin and produce the works of the flesh. This was the purpose of the law, to make sin exceeding sinful, to show us that no matter how hard we tried, we could not meet God's standards without actually becoming like Him through the rebirth and the power of the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor. 15:56 tells us that the strength of sin is the law. The law only made sin stronger in us because we were carnal. This is what Paul describes as his own experience in all of Romans 7.


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Travis

 2019/3/4 18:20Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1930
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
But it is God who empowers us to keep his commandments by the working of the Holy Spirit. It is not by self effort, it is God who enables us.



I don't believe that it is so much that God empowers us to keep his commandments. I believe that God makes us like Himself so that we think, act, feel, and live like Him. In this we never have to worry again about trying to keep any commandment. We simply allow Him to live His own life through us and holiness is the result. I know it seems a subtle difference but it is the key to victory over defeat.


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Travis

 2019/3/4 18:22Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1624


 Re:

Travis, I am not sure why you are lecturing here about Law. I never said we are called to keep law. I am only saying Law never died, which now you seem to agree! we do not need to keep God's word as a law but live by Spirit. I wrote about law because one of the poster here said Law is abolished which is totally unscriptural and a lie.

Romans 2 :14- Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, since they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness,

We live the Spirit of the law by obeying the Holy Spirit. Even though we gentiles do not have Law in Christ, our standard of life is so high that it easily surpasses the requirement of Law. Like I said before, Jesus raised the bar of Old Covenant in Sermon on the mount. For example if 10 commandments is jumping a 10 feet high bar then New Covenant standard is jumping 100 feet high bar. When we jump this 100 feet bar, automatically we also cross 10 feet bar! This is how Paul says in Romans 2 that Gentiles will keep the requirement of Law.

The words of Jesus in Sermon on the Mount or in any of the Gospel is not law. To call them law is to call Jesus as liar because he clearly said that his words are Spirit.

John 6:63 - the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

So I call anyone who says Jesus preached law that we are not required to keep is a liar and truth is not in him.


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Sreeram

 2019/3/4 18:36Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1624


 Re:

Quote:

In this we never have to worry again about trying to keep any commandment.



When God says in new covenant he will put his commandments in our minds and then in our hearts. But you are saying we do not need to worry about commandments, only one of them can be true! I know whom to believe.

Hebrews 8 - 10-I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Writing into mind means God will first give us desire to obey his word. Then writing into our hearts means, God will give us ability to do the same.

When we are born again we get the nature of God because we are now born into God's own family by his own Spirit. This gives us the desire to obey God and be perfect like him. But we are still weak because we live in the same sinful flesh. It is God who strengthens us by empowering us to fight the flesh.

If we are to do nothing to become like Christ then why are we commanded in 1 John 3:3 to purify our self? Why are we commanded in Philippians to workout the salvation? This do nothing Christianity is not Biblical, God does not make us robots when we are born again, we still have our will which we should yield every single day to God. Jesus himself had to deny his will and do Father's will every single day in his life (John 6:38).


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Sreeram

 2019/3/4 20:31Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1930
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Sreeram: Never meant to lecture anyone. If it seems so I am sorry. I am only trying to give the whole of how I see it.

I do believe the old testament law is done away with because the old covenant has been done away with. My talking about the law was an attempt to show the whole of why I believe this.

I don't believe Jesus was raising the bar so that we could jump a 10 foot bar by instead jumping a 100 foot bar. i believe He was showing the utter futility of thinking we could ever jump God's bar to begin with.

The requirements of the law were that they must be kept 100% in order to demonstrate a righteousness that is acceptable to God. "If any man offends in one part he is guilty of all".

I believe in Romans 2 that Paul is showing that all men have an innate knowledge that there is a God to whom they are accountable and that His law judges all of them. They demonstrate this when they make laws that judge one another. Their own innate sense of right, wrong, and justice belie the fact that they know deep down that they are accountable to judgement so that they are without excuse. Their laws exposed the fact that deep down they knew they were in sin just as the OT law exposed the fact that Israel was in sin.

The point is that He is not calling us to keep laws now. He is calling us to become like Him and allow His life to live through us. If this is the case, then law is totally irrelevant to us. It is in fact a non-issue. We are now living by the very Spirit inside of us that gave the law to begin with. His ways are now written on our hearts. We do by nature the things that we used to do by mandate. It comes not by having higher standards that we now have help to meet. It comes by being transformed into the likeness of the very one who gave the standards or laws to us to reveal our own sinfulness to begin with.






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Travis

 2019/3/4 21:14Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1930
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
When we are born again we get the nature of God because we are now born into God's own family by his own Spirit. This gives us the desire to obey God and be perfect like him. But we are still weak because we live in the same sinful flesh. It is God who strengthens us by empowering us to fight the flesh.

If we are to do nothing to become like Christ then why are we commanded in 1 John 3:3 to purify our self? Why are we commanded in Philippians to workout the salvation? This do nothing Christianity is not Biblical, God does not make us robots when we are born again, we still have our will which we should yield every single day to God. Jesus himself had to deny his will and do Father's will every single day in his life (John 6:38).



I am not sure if you somehow got the idea that I was suggesting that we do nothing, or that I was suggesting that there is not a fight against the flesh. Nothing could be further from the truth. But the work of my salvation is primarily in intimacy with the Father as I allow Him to reveal in me the areas that need changed and then I allow Him by His word and the Spirit to change those things in my life so that I become more like Him.


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Travis

 2019/3/4 21:19Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1624


 Re:

Quote:

I don't believe Jesus was raising the bar so that we could jump a 10 foot bar by instead jumping a 100 foot bar. i believe He was showing the utter futility of thinking we could ever jump God's bar to begin with.

The requirements of the law were that they must be kept 100% in order to demonstrate a righteousness that is acceptable to God. "If any man offends in one part he is guilty of all".



I totally reject this. When you are saying sermon on the mount is law, you call Jesus a liar who said his words are spirit. Like I said before, a truly born again person will have a desire to obey every word of Jesus. Jesus himself said a person who loves him will keep his commandments. You call Jesus a liar by saying that his commandments cannot be kept. Again I reject your explanation because God's word is the truth and every man made idea is a lie.

I also find no consistency in what you have posted here. You have changed your position multiple times in this single thread.


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Sreeram

 2019/3/4 22:41Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1624


 Re:

The main mistake that people make about Sermon on the Mount is, it was not given to the common people who gathered around Jesus. It was given to disciples.

Matt 5:1 - When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him. He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,

Luke 6:20 - And turning His gaze toward His disciples, He began to say, “Blessed are [j]you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.

Hence it was the teaching given to the disciples, for them to follow. Jesus was not intending to show anyone how they cannot keep. He was not wasting his time there. He was teaching his disciples how to live God's desire standard in New Covenant.

When I debate with people of other religions, I tell them to read Sermon on the Mount with an unbiased heart. I believe if someone does this, he will really be brought to repentance and will acknowledge that this is the teaching given by God regarding his standard of requirement for his creation.


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Sreeram

 2019/3/4 22:58Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 965
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Sree: Well before you decidedly kick me out of the kingdom for having a discussion with you about the law you might want to review the hundreds of other posts Ive made that very clearly speak of sanctification in a believers life. If you're not going to do that, I would caution you about jumping to erroneous conclusions.

So, you like to use the law as a litmus test (my words) so you can gauge yourself whether or not you have kept the word of God; this is being sanctified which you know by way of a continued obedience to various laws.

Ok fine, but Travis and I (not trying to put words in Travis mouth) believe the scriptures point past using the law as a 'litmus test'. The scriptures point us to the indwelling Spirit and our immediate sonship that creates the massive shift in how we know we are obeying God. Our sanctification is understood on a very low level when it is relegated to 'law keeping'. Our sanctification is really our transformation from habits and patterns conforming to the old-self. Our promise is to be conformed to his image Rom 8, but this conformity is supernatural, it's a manifestation of the life of God within us and as it comes to expression in our words, thoughts and deeds others can see our 'sanctification'.

When people see the love of Jesus in us, are they seeing "thou shalt have no other gods before me"? Yes, but not in the form of a command but in the form of our sonship and love for God. When people see our faith in Jesus to save us, are they understanding it as the 'keeping of the law'? I would hope not, because it is not by my keeping of the law that I am justified or sanctified, Jesus is in fact living his life through me...Jesus does not live any other life than the one he lived here on earth, therefore Christ in me and revealed through me is law-keeping at its finest.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

and again...
1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
1Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

So here is a scripture that is astounding in its ramifications...1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

You see, there is no litmus test to be given as to our sanctification...when we do righteousness we are righteous as Jesus when doing it.

Now it is common among some that sanctification checks are necessary because holiness matters a great deal to them and rightly it should. But as John the Apostle teaches us, it is the indwelling Spirit and eternal life...those are what we use as the means to spring-board forward toward more and more obedience...it is not a well-kept record of our righteousness.

I say again the sermon on the mount is what living in relationship to God as a beloved son manifests. Love, sacrifice, prayer, things done are truly for God not to be seen of others, faith and hope in God not in men or your own merits. The high esteem of marriage, the words your mouth, even judging rightly and avoiding the false prophet and his lies.
The beatitudes engage the believer in seeking to imitate Jesus Christ, not to make sure of some 'level' of sanctification has me clear of hell fire.

I would have never thought you would think differently on this matter and would have thought in reading anything Ive written I was confused on sanctification. Hopefully this clarifies?


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Marvin

 2019/3/4 23:32Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1930
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Sreeram: I am not sure where you ever got the idea that I was calling the sermon on the mount law. Jesus pointed out that true holiness, true righteousness, who God truly is goes so far beyond the OT law. The Pharisees thought they were righteous because they kept the law. They found their righteousness in their ability to keep the law. It was a self-righteousness. But self-righteousness is as filthy rags. We must have God's righteousness. That was the purpose of the new covenant. It was never given so we could be righteous positionally and go to heaven one day. It was given to transform us into His image. If I have His image and His nature, I don't have to worry about His written laws. I have the Holy Spirit, the law-giver, living through me and He never breaks his own laws. This is where victory is in the Christian life. I hear people say how hard it is to live the Christian life. But I was never called to try to live the Christian life. I was called to die to sin and self and allow God to live through me. I am not trying to live His life. He is my very life. It takes me out of the realm of self-effort and puts me in the realm of His power and His victory. I know it might seem a subtle difference, but it is everything. I can honestly tell you that I am seeing myself transformed by His word and His Spirit right before my very eyes. I am learning that I am not trying to live free from sin by my own efforts. I am dying to self and allowing the sinless one to live in and through me. It really changes everything. No more sin consciousness but singleness of eye as I focus on Him and run after Him with all I have.

Like I said brother, my purpose and aim is never to argue or debate. Never found it fruitful. My purpose was to try to share a truth about the sermon on the mount that has blessed me and transformed my life. If it blesses you then I am happy. If you reject it, then you do so. I really do pray you have a blessed day and that God shows up in your life in a greater and greater way day by day. Be bless brother.


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Travis

 2019/3/5 7:24Profile





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