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coops
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Joined: 2004/6/28
Posts: 141


 lying spirit?!

2 Thes. 2v11-12 says "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness"

Again,
1 Kings 22:20-23
"20 And the Lord said, 'Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, 'I will persuade him.' 22 The Lord said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the Lord said, 'You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.' 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you."

So my question is why would God send a delusion, or send a spirit to go lie? Not just allow....but to send it himself so that they will believe it. But yet somehwere it says "the lord is not slow in keeping his promise....(something, something something)....he is patient, not wanting any to perish" That probably aint even quoted right, I think it is in the peters or one of the johns. So God doesnt want anybody to perish, but he will send a delusion so people will believe a lie and as a result be eternally condemned? I'm confused. God is truth, but he sends stuff so people will believe a lie instead of the truth.

What about the verse that says all liars will hae their part in the lake of fire? Wouldn't you be in trouble on judgement day if you told someone to lie?


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Coops

 2005/7/7 19:02Profile
letsgetbusy
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Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re: lying spirit?!

While I am a firm believer of election, predestination, and the like, I also see that Scripture teaches a freedom in Christ, and a choice of "whosoever will." I believe while God must know the outcome of every individual's fate if he knows the outcome of history, I believe He gives us the freedom to fail.

Romans 1:20: "God also gave them up to uncleanness." It seems to me that God seeks us, draws us, and yet tries us. Job was on trial until his point of repentance from what I read.

If we truly desire the holy fire of God within us, often God puts us through severe trails to prove us. If we truly desire His knowledge, and His wisdom, it would seem that He would send a lying spirit, and a strong delusion, that we would sharpen our sword. If we want the armour of God, there must be a battle to fight. No lying spirit, no fight for truth. No delusioin, no preaching of the Truth. No Sodom, no fire of heaven.

If God grants freedom, there must be good and evil. If there is choice to go with evil, there must be judgment. If there are wicked rulers, there must be a John Baptist to point a holy finger. How does John sharpen his axe. God sends men with lying spirits to contend with John. God uses the heathen to strenghten His people.

Psalm 119:71-"It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes."

God also used the lying spirit, as it were, to work through heathen nations to judge Israel. Many times God uses the reign of the wicked as a symbol of Israel's backsliding.

Does this help or stir up the mud?


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Hal Bachman

 2005/7/7 19:55Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Billy Bray

This is not an explanation, just an illustration.
Most UK post-ers will have heard of [url=http://www.swordofthelord.com/biographies/Bray.htm]Billy Bray[/url] aka the King's Son. This is my favourite story of the man.

Billy Bray and his family were trusting God for their supplies and at times the supply was pretty thin. On one occasion a local butcher, who was a militant atheist, heard that Billy Bray and his family were hungry. The butcher climbed onto the Bray's roof and lowered a leg of lamb down the chimney on a piece of rope. "Here you are" said the butcher "the devil has brought you some meat". Billy Bray calmly untied the leg of lamb and called back up the chimney; "well, the devil may have brought it but the Lord sent it!'


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Ron Bailey

 2005/7/8 13:32Profile
coops
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Joined: 2004/6/28
Posts: 141


 Re: lying spirit?

I like that illustration!

But, it's not quite what I'm after. It sounds like God sent a lying spirit...

So if King David sent a message to someone that was a lie, would they say the messenger lied... or would they say King David lied?

By the same token, it sounds as if God is lying, if not He is certainly condoning deception!

How can that be?


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Coops

 2005/7/8 19:18Profile
letsgetbusy
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Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

With I Kings 22, the false prophets were God's way of sharpening Micaiah's axe, while he stood before Zedekiah. God put a lying spirit in the ungodly. The New Testament quotes are just confirming this.

So, yes, God gave permission for a lying spirit to move, just like He gave Satan permission to do a number on Job. In other words he allowed the spirit of lies, to move in the liars.

Allowing evil, or letting evil exist, and being evil cannot be the same.


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Hal Bachman

 2005/7/8 20:45Profile
jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

To go along with letsgetbusy's post here is the entry from "When Critics Ask" by Norman Geislar on this passage:

[b]1 Kings 22:22--How could God use "lying spirits" to do His will since He forbids lying?[/b]

[b]PROBLEM:[/b] The Scriptures teach that God is truth (Deut. 32:4) and that it is impossible for Him to lie (Heb. 6:18). Furthermore, God commands us not to lie (Ex. 20:16), and He will severely punish those who do (Rev. 21:8). And yet, in spite of all this, God is portrayed in this passage as enlisting lying spirits to entice wicked king Ahab to seal his own doom. The text says, "Now therefore, look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours" (v.23).

[b]SOLUTION:[/b] Several factors should be considered in understanding this situation. First, this is a vision. As such, it is a dramatic picture of God's sovereign authority spelled out in regal imagery. Second, this dramatic vision represents God in all HIs sweeping authority so that even evil spirits are represented as being subjected to His ultimate control. Third, the God of the Bible, in contratst to gods of pagan religions, is in sovereign control of everything, including the forces of evil which He uses to accomplish His good purposes (cf. Job1-3). Fourth, the Bible sometimes speaks of God "hardening" people's hearts or even sending them strong delusions (2Thes. 2:11). However, on closer examination of the text, we discover that God did this only on those who freely harden their own hearts (Ex. 8:15) and who "did not believe the truth" (2Thes. 2:12). In short, God is not [i]commending[/i] lying here. He is simply [i]utilizing[/i] it to accomplish His purposes. God is not [i]promoting[/i] lying, but [i]permitting[/i] it to bring judgment on evil. That is, God, for His own purposes of justice, allowed Ahab to be deceived by evil spirits whom He knew in His omniscience would be used to accomplish His sovereign and good will. (all quotations and italics in the original)


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/7/8 21:19Profile
coops
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Joined: 2004/6/28
Posts: 141


 Re:

Thanks Hulsley, that was really good *saves on computer*

correct me if I'm wrong, but in Job, didn't God say (in effect) "I permit you" to satan... like satan submitted a plan and God approved.

Then here in 1 kings, we sort of have God submitting a plan those in heaven and saying "Who is going to carry this one out for me?" and they all bidded for it and so on, then a lying spirit got the job and God comissions him.

Isn't commissioning a little differnt than allowing?


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Coops

 2005/7/8 22:22Profile
jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Remember the pivotal verses in Job are these:

Quote:
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. [i]And the LORD said unto Satan,[/i][b] Hast thou considered my servant Job,[/b] that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
(Job 1:7-8 KJVR)


God, and not Satan, initiated the whole conflict that would center on Job. Here is what Darby has to say about this passage:

Quote:
It is carefully to be remarked here, that the spring and source of all these dealings is not Satan's accusations, but God Himself. God knew what His servant Job needed, and Himself brings forward his case and sets all in movement. If He demands of Satan if he had considered His servant Job, it is because He Himself had. Satan is but an instrument, and an ignorant though subtle instrument, to bring about God's purposes of grace. His accusations result really in nothing as against Job, save to disprove their truth by what he is allowed to do; but, for Job's good, he is left to his will up to a certain point, for the purpose of bringing Job to a knowledge of his own heart, and thus to a deeper ground of practical relationship with God. How blessed and perfect are God's ways! How vain in result the efforts of Satan against those that are His!



God allowing Satan to afflict Job in order to further God's own purposes is the same as God allowing a lying spirit to fill the mouths of the false prophets. Both malicious agents in the two passages meant harm, but only served to further to puroposes of God in spite of themselves.


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/7/8 23:07Profile
Warrior4Jah
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Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands

 Re:

Ey coops,

Here is another one to sharpen your mind.
[b]1 Timotheus 1:20[/b] [i]20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.[/i]

Be sure to read the other verses around it 2. :)

God bless!


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Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/7/9 6:18Profile
coops
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Joined: 2004/6/28
Posts: 141


 Re:

thanks heaps guys!


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Coops

 2005/7/9 19:09Profile





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