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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Trying to Understand God

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CofG
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
Cambodia

 Trying to Understand God

In the OT, there was a time when God said He would visit the sins of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations. Can someone explain to me the "fairness" of that? I'm not questioning God by the way. Just our own reasonings of fairness?

For example, the brothers of Joseph sold him into slavery and subsequently God allowed the descendants of Jacob to be in slavery for 430 years. Are those things connected?

The Bible is replete with examples where God punished the sins of the fathers on the children and grandchildren. Korah's rebellion, the wilderness punishment of the men of Israel who would not go in at Kadesh Barnea.

Now for those who would say there is a New Covenant now that reveals a God of grace, I would ask you to consider Jude 1 where God reveals it was Jesus who destroyed His people in the wilderness who tested Him.

This question is not an OT question. Clearly the sins of the father are not now attributed to the children but the following verse is instructive for us today.

Let us not test Christ as some of them did and were destroyed by snakes. And don’t complain as some of them did, and were killed by the destroyer. These things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our instruction, on whom the ends of the ages have come. -- 1 Corinthians 10:8-11 (CSB)


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Robert

 2019/2/1 19:19Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re: Trying to Understand God

Good question to try to tackle. We must also seek to reconcile that "unfairness" with this 18th chapter of Ezekiel:

"1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 "What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge'?

3 "As I live," says the Lord God, "you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. 5 But if a man is just And does what is lawful and right; 6 If he has not eaten on the mountains, Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, Nor defiled his neighbor's wife, Nor approached a woman during her impurity; 7 If he has not oppressed anyone, But has restored to the debtor his pledge; Has robbed no one by violence, But has given his bread to the hungry And covered the naked with clothing; 8 If he has not exacted usury Nor taken any increase, But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity And executed true judgment between man and man; 9 If he has walked in My statutes And kept My judgments faithfully-- He is just; He shall surely live!" Says the Lord God.

10 "If he begets a son who is a robber Or a shedder of blood, Who does any of these things 11 And does none of those duties, But has eaten on the mountains Or defiled his neighbor's wife; 12 If he has oppressed the poor and needy, Robbed by violence, Not restored the pledge, Lifted his eyes to the idols, Or committed abomination; 13 If he has exacted usury Or taken increase-- Shall he then live? He shall not live! If he has done any of these abominations, He shall surely die; His blood shall be upon him.

14 "If, however, he begets a son Who sees all the sins which his father has done, And considers but does not do likewise; 15 Who has not eaten on the mountains, Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, Nor defiled his neighbor's wife; 16 Has not oppressed anyone, Nor withheld a pledge, Nor robbed by violence, But has given his bread to the hungry And covered the naked with clothing; 17 Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor And not received usury or increase, But has executed My judgments And walked in My statutes-- He shall not die for the iniquity of his father; He shall surely live!
18 "As for his father, Because he cruelly oppressed, Robbed his brother by violence, And did what is not good among his people, Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.

19 "Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord God, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord God. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord God. "Therefore turn and live!"


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Oracio

 2019/2/1 20:46Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
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Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I find it interesting that in Ezekiel 18 we read of Israel accusing God of being unfair, accusing Him of punishing children for their fathers' sins. Yet God seems to go to great lengths in that chapter to point out that that is a false accusation. I see God clearly emphasizing there that children are not held responsible nor "punished" for their fathers' sins.


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Oracio

 2019/2/1 21:20Profile
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
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 Re:

Hi Oracio.

How would you interpret this passage?

You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, - Exodus 20:5

I’m not suggesting the children are morally responsible in guilt for the sins of the fathers. I’m addressing consequences.


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Robert

 2019/2/1 22:04Profile









 Re:

Dear brother Robert. I’m not Oracio obviously, but have often pondered this myself. While I do not claim to know the full truth, or even that I’m accurate, I’d like to chime in with my thoughts.

When I read “visiting” there, I picture in my mind God “stopping by to observe” the generational consequences of a father being sinful.

A father living in sin likely has generational consequences for the children, but not always guaranteeing that each child will sin in the same manner, or always remain unrepentant (thanks be to God for that mercy!). Maybe that’s why there is the caveat “of those who hate me”?

But maybe I’m not understanding or interpreting “visiting” properly. Maybe Mac or you know the Hebrew meaning?

Love you all so much!

Pardon the intrusion and I’m eager to hear from Oracio too.

 2019/2/1 22:40
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi Robert, I think we agree on the distinction between moral responsibility and consequences. Regarding Exodus 20:5, I think there are a couple ways it may be interpreted.

First, I think it may refer to children who grow up to practice the same sins their fathers practiced and therefore receive the same judgments. The context there speaks of the sin of idolatry, something many children learn from their parents and go on to practice themselves.

Secondly, it may refer to certain “national judgments” upon nations that act wickedly as a whole. Regarding Israel being punished as slaves in Egypt, Ezekiel 20:5-9 says they were judged there for committing idolatry with the idols of Egypt. Here’s that passage:

“5 Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “On the day when I chose Israel and raised My hand in an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, I raised My hand in an oath to them, saying, ‘I am the Lord your God.’ 6 On that day I raised My hand in an oath to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands. 7 Then I said to them, ‘Each of you, throw away the abominations which are before his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.’ 8 But they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, ‘I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’ 9 But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles among whom they were, in whose sight I had made Myself known to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt.”


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Oracio

 2019/2/1 22:55Profile
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Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi Caleb, very interesting observation brother. No need to apologize brother, it's no intrusion as far as I'm concerned. Please feel free to "chime in" anytime brother.


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Oracio

 2019/2/1 22:58Profile
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
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 Re:

Not an intrusion at all ! Thanks for your kind spirit.

One meaning for “visit” is to observe. But, another viable meaning is “punishment”. Most theologians agree it refers to temporal punishment and the deaths of infants in the punishments by God of His people for their sins (Achan, Korah, israel’s Spies, etc) are so ample in Scripture that it is hard to dispute this meaning in this text. If this indeed is the understanding of the word, then normal human ideas of “fairness” and even impartial grace need to be reconciled with this meaning.


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Robert

 2019/2/1 22:58Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi Robert, I agree that we cannot escape the fact that children suffer certain consequences at times for the sins of their parents.

I think a related question here would be, "Why would God punish and wipe out whole nations or people groups in the Old Testament, including little children, on account of the parents' sins?"

I'm sure you're aware of some of the arguments made in defense of God's character when it comes to that objection.

Ultimately, I believe it goes back to the problem of evil and suffering brought upon this sin-cursed world.

Thankfully, through the cross of Christ God has provided redemption and an escape from the ultimate consequence of sin.


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Oracio

 2019/2/1 23:18Profile
CofG
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
Cambodia

 Re:

Thanks Oracio

I am aware. I’m actually asking the Job question except I’m asking it in a different way.

I think God’s ways are way beyond our ways but I find much of Christianity projecting their own ideas of what God is like onto God Himself ( a subtle idolatry). A fearful acceptance of God for how He portrays Himself by His ways and byHis words will help all to know Him far better. He delights in mercy and justice and He acts in ways that confound our own definitions and finite expectations and understandings. Often, it is far better to just bend the knee.


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Robert

 2019/2/1 23:38Profile





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