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Discussion Forum : Miracles that follow the plow : God loves Us but Not Them!

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savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1913


 Re: attitudes



docs said,

"Gloating over the destruction of those "God doesn't love" is where problems of attitude begin. I'm chosen and they are not so ha, look at them may not be the most godly of attitudes."

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The righteous will be glad when they see the wicked getting what they deserve, and they will wash their feet in their enemies' blood.
Psalm 58:10

Do not gloat when your enemy falls, and do not let your heart rejoice when he stumbles. Proverbs 24:17

🤔

 2019/1/30 9:49Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1860


 Re:

You have heard that is was said an eye for a eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I say unto you love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. We've come a long ways since rejoicing when washing our feet in the blood of our enemies. The NT speaks of higher and better ways.


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David Winter

 2019/1/30 11:41Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
Exalting the love God has for His family does not in any way diminish the love He obviously has for His enemies. I was only asking if there is a difference and when that love of family began.



Robert, May I take a crack here? I realize this garble falls short….. I’m still working on it.

I see no way of coming to terms with the concept of God’s love apart from the theme of reconciliation – as distinguished from forgiveness. Humanly speaking, we understand that forgiving an offender doesn’t imply that we are reconciled with them. The offender must be willing to receive our forgiveness, and that requires that person owning up to their wrongs. A violated adult daughter cannot enjoy a restored filial relationship with her formerly-abusive father while he continues in his denial – even though she herself has chosen to forgive him.

I’d say: We’ll have difficulty understanding and even knowing God’s love as long as we disregard his mercy and forgiveness – the essence of redemptive love!

“But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us … For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son.” Rom. 5:8, 10

… Can we not surely declare that God loves the world even in their enmity (estrangement from Him)? Christ died for all, and thus God’s forgiveness extends to all! YET: no sinner is reconciled to God, into a filial relationship while continuing to deny their fallenness and while unable/unwilling to embrace his covenant merciful love.

Quote:
"The Father Himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came forth from God." The word for love here is "φιλέω" the intimate and personal relationship between two friends.


Mac, this is insightful to me. Isn't it the outworking of reconciliation - two way.



_________________
Diane

 2019/1/30 11:52Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1913


 Re: Us and them again

Diane said,

"Christ died for all, and thus God’s forgiveness extends to all!"


JESUS said,

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know My sheep and My sheep know Me, just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd.

So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
John 10:11,14,15,16,24-30


Ephesians 5:25-27

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,and to present her to Himself as a glorious church, without stain or wrinkle or any such blemish, but holy and blameless.

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JESUS, and The Word of God penned by Paul the Apostle to the gentiles, tell me that His death was for His sheep, His church He loved, even as a faithful husband loves his wife.

Jesus says twice, "I lay down My life for the sheep", and then says, "you are not My sheep" to some. Your assumption Diane, that, "Christ died for all", is refuted by my LORD and my God Himself, the King of kings, Messiah Jesus.

Here lies the foundation of that error regarding His love. Get this right and all else is put in the proper perspective.

God is good and kind to all His creatures. The rain falls and the sun shines on all. It is written that He endures the vessels of wrath, but His love endures forever to the vessels of mercy.

Again, seen here is the "Us" and "them" worldview. For there's no other worldview revealed from above.

Abel and Cain
Jacob and Esau
Peter and Judas
The two thieves

Praise be to our God, for there is no other!

 2019/1/30 13:00Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1039
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Doc:

I'm not sure I know anyone here who 'gloats' over the destruction of sinners. I for sure make a distinction between the Elect and Non-elect but that does not mean I or anyone else is 'gloating'.

Bringing up this subject has the same reaction that Jesus received when he did the same "many drew back" it's a "hard saying" etc.


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Marvin

 2019/1/30 13:30Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1039
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Mak good to hear from you.

The aspect of Phileo (friendship or friend) belongs to the fruit of love, it's not source of God's bestowal of love. Otherwise, you have a full-fledged works system that qualifies you once you've 'loved' enough in obedience.

Jesus denotes those who obey are those who love him. Jesus is not teaching the free-will has now loved and therefore God responds by loving back. Instead, Jesus is teaching that the fruit of believing is obeying...as Jesus taught in another place "a good tree bears good fruit".


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Marvin

 2019/1/30 13:34Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5163
NC, USA

 Re:

Jesus died before there was any Church.

He died so there could be a church.

So to say he died for the Church only is rather misleading.

His death was the means for the Church to come into being.


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Todd

 2019/1/30 15:41Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
Again, seen here is the "Us" and "them" worldview. For there's no other worldview revealed from above.



Savannah, I appreciate the many biblical references you draw. They undeniably reveal a distinction between the “sheep” and “goats”. It's clear in countless scriptures.

Yet it seems we are walking past each other. I wonder if you are hearing me say that since “God so loved the world..(as in all humans)” all are consequently saved (the universalist view, which is all too common). Is that right? If so, I’m curious to know what words of mine might have implied that.

What I mean by the “us vs them” worldview is something quite different, and I can explain that later.


_________________
Diane

 2019/1/30 17:39Profile
CofG
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 299
Cambodia

 Re:

todd said:

Jesus died before there was any Church.

He died so there could be a church

So the passage has no meaning after there was a church? He just died for the possibility?

So, Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and died for her must mean then that this command only applies before we are married.


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Robert

 2019/1/30 19:04Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1913


 Re: in the beginning...




Todd says,

"Jesus died before there was any Church." 

------------------

Not true.

The Word of God says that the Church was in the wilderness; note also that Christ was with them.

For He is our Rock. The hymn-writer didn't pen Rock of Ages for nought. He knew the Scriptures, both OT and NT.

Acts 7

30And when forty years were fulfilled, an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in a flame of fire in a bush.31And when Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold, there came a voice of the Lord, 32I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob. And Moses trembled, and durst not behold. 33And the Lord said unto him, Loose the shoes from thy feet: for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 34I have surely seen the affliction of my people that is in Egypt, and have heard their groaning, and I am come down to deliver them: and now come, I will send thee into Egypt.

35This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? him hath God sent to be both a ruler and a deliverer with the hand of the angel that appeared to him in the bush. 36This man led them forth, having wrought wonders and signs in Egypt, and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years. 37This is that Moses, who said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me. 38This is he that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us.

1 Corinthians 10


1For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and did all eat the same spiritual food; 4and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ. 5Howbeit with most of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Todd, you also failed to address Jesus' own words that He was laying His life down for His sheep.

I don't think you believe that the people of God are separate groups of people.

The people of God are one throughout the ages, from Adam onward. One flock which make up His sheep, and One Shepherd of all, Jesus the Messiah.

And then there are those Jesus plainly said were not His sheep.

 2019/1/30 19:38Profile





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