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Discussion Forum : Miracles that follow the plow : God loves Us but Not Them!

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TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5300
NC, USA

 Re:

//and my church service later that morning seemed more like a kindergarten class after listening to Art.//

Yes he tends to have that effect.


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Todd

 2019/1/29 13:35Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:


Quote:
"YOU are of God, little children, and have overcome THEM: because greater is he that is in YOU, than he that is in the WORLD. THEY are of the WORLD: therefore THEY speak from the WORLD, and the WORLD heareth THEM. WE are of God. He that knoweth God, heareth US; he that is not of God, heareth not US. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error."
1 John 4:4-7



Are these texts to be used as proof that God loves some but does not love the sinners (those under judgment)?


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Diane

 2019/1/29 14:11Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1062
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Diane: The text you posted tells us what it's point is..."By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error". It substantiates two kinds of people as Savannah said. But it's not proof that a sinner who fits under that category (spirit of error) will always remain so. In fact that's where God gets his saints...from the sinners who are 'not of us'.

But the fact remains, not all sinners are elected to the salvation of God. For God knows whom he has chosen to reveal himself. It follows that those whom God reveals himself too are those whom God loves and has determined to open their eyes to it.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

"no man can come to me except it were given unto him of my Father"

This 'seeing the Son'...40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
is not by way of natural process, but by divine revelation.
The Jews saw Jesus but didn't see Jesus at the same time.

It's from this we deduce the manifest love of God, not by way of guessing 'whos loved' but by their testimony of 'seeing Jesus' because the Father revealed him to them.
As is found in Matt 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven

We are not 'against' sinners, God forbid, but we are not 'of' those who are estranged from God. God made the separation himself and that by his own workings.


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Marvin

 2019/1/29 15:48Profile
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
But the fact remains, not all sinners are elected to the salvation of God. For God knows whom he has chosen to reveal himself. It follows that those whom God reveals himself too are those whom God loves and has determined to open their eyes to it.


God's love is an infinite subject, and I think that's what we are struggling with, G&G! What if we articulated the distinction in this way:

Some receive God's love./ Others reject God's love.

Or is that too armenian?
We'd undoubtedly agree that ultimately those who reject God are eternally separated from God's covenant love - as promised to humanity (the world.... or some in the world ...)


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Diane

 2019/1/29 16:48Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
.. God was willing to do it to turn his people.


Thanks Fletcher and Todd!! The sermon is undeniably a category 5 hurricane. Art uses the context of the holocaust to shake up “us” evangelical believers. I’ve drawn here a collection of quotes which in no conveys full impact of this epic sermon. What a remarkable way of putting “us” on equal ground with fallen humanity – equally in need of God’s merciful love.
-------------------------------------------
“We need to be devastated, saints. That devastation is the very mercy of God, who is not content with our sham…”

“The Lord wants to turn our captivity to pray for others in their captivity …Our mandate to extend mercy that they may receive mercy.”

“There’s a remarkable necessity to lay hold of God in a way that we would have been too slothful to otherwise seek him. We would have been content to coast. [Through my message today] God is bringing you a verbal holocaust of a fuller one for those who want to be increased and multiplied and have a length of years for which you can rejoice eternally.

“You who are relatively satisfied with yourself”, [consider Job who through his own holocaust came to say] ‘I repent in dust and ashes’. Dust means dirt, the only place that’s fit for you is 6 feet under.
Isaiah said, “Woe is me for I am of unclean lips and I live amidst a people of unclean lips.”

“If we don’t understand from ultimate suffering, will we be required to experience something worse?”

The tragedy is in failing to turn to see or ask what God is doing in the devastation.
----
Art implies that we should not avoid troubling themes like judgment. Rather, we need to face “perplexity” (his word).

It seems that this thread theme is an opportunity to do just that.



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Diane

 2019/1/29 16:56Profile
CofG
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 339
Cambodia

 Re:

Is God’s love for His enemies different than His love for His family? If so, when does the difference begin in God’s heart and mind?


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Robert

 2019/1/30 5:24Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5300
NC, USA

 Re:

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 5:43-48


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Todd

 2019/1/30 6:53Profile
makrothumia
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Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 611
Texas

 Re:

Here is an aspect from the Greek that may shed light on this subject.

Jesus explained to the disciples that "The Father Himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came forth from God." The word for love here is "φιλέω" the intimate and personal relationship between two friends. The noun form of this word was used of Abraham - "Abraham was called the "friend" (φιλos) of God."



Jesus called His disciples "friends" (φιλoi) because of the relationship they had with Him. He also clarified that they were His "friends" based upon their continuing obedience to His commands."

This relationship between obedience and having God's love is also expressly stated in John 14:21 - " He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

Paul seemed to understand this principle and this is evidenced by his closing statement in I Corinthians 16 - "If any man does not love (φιλeo) the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema."

mak


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Alan and Dina Martin

 2019/1/30 6:54Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1962


 Re:

Gloating over the destruction of those "God doesn't love" is where problems of attitude begin. I'm chosen and they are not so ha, look at them may not be the most godly of attitudes.


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David Winter

 2019/1/30 7:55Profile
CofG
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 339
Cambodia

 Re:

Exalting the love God has for His family does not in any way diminish the love He obviously has for His enemies. I was only asking if there is a difference and when that love of family began. Jesus prayed that the Father would love Jesus’ brothers with the same love He has for Jesus. I’m just trying to understand a difference, if any, for His love of enemies like we all once were.


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Robert

 2019/1/30 8:03Profile





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