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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : How should this affect me as a believer?

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Joined: 2006/9/16
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 Re:

Good thoughts going on here I think.

So which way does God really see us? As a new creation in Christ, partakers of His actual divine and incorruptible nature, or as someone saved but still a dirty rotten sinner, a worm and no man. Are we robbing ourselves when we say I remain just a poor sinner? Is that our true identity in God and Christ? Which should we relate to stronger?

We discussed this again in Sunday school yesterday. And I'm not saying I'm approaching perfection. But at this point I want to get my identity straight as I walk in this life.


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David Winter

 2019/1/14 3:35Profile
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 YOU ARE NOT A SINNER OR A WORM

1 John, 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

You are NOT a rotten sinner or a worm. You are A Child of God and Saint. Your Body is a temple of the LIVING GOD. The same Spirit who raised Christ from the dead Dwells in you. You are Holy.

You believe in the death of the Lord Jesus and you believe in the death of the thieves with Him. Now what about your own death? Your crucifixion is more intimate than theirs. They were crucified at the same time as the Lord but on different crosses, whereas you were crucified on the self same cross as He, for you were in Him when He died. How can you know? You can know for the one sufficient reason that God has said so.

It does not depend on your feelings. If you feel that Christ has died, He has died; and if you do not feel that he died, He has died. If you feel that you have died, you have died; and if you do not feel that you have died, you have nevertheless just as surely died.

These are Divine facts. That Christ has died is a fact, that the two thieves have died is a fact, and that you have died is a fact also. Let me tell you, You have died! You are done with! You are ruled out! The self you loathe is on the Cross in Christ. And "he that is dead is freed from sin" (Romans 6:7, A.V.)."

Just look at some things God has already done for you and in you.

This is the truth that sets you free.

You have deliverance from sin and its spiritual consequences.

You are attached to the body of Christ.

You have Jesus Christ actually dwelling, abiding and living within you.

You have been set free from the law of sin and death.

You have deliverance from the pollution of sin itself.

You are now one with Christ and in union with Him.

You are now a totally NEW creation.

You have been reconciled to God.

You have entered into a new spiritual life of righteousness, peace and joy

You are now seated in the heavily places in Christ.

You have been delivered from eternal death, sin, punishment and misery.

Jesus Christ Himself is now your Life. You are now a partaker of His divine nature.

You have been freed from the power and domain of sin.

You have now been justified by his blood,

You have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace "

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made you free from the law of sin and death

You have been crucified with Christ.

Your body is now the Temple of God and you are holy.

You have been made the righteousness of God in Christ.

He is your Sabbath rest.

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

God has taken away your stony hard heart and REPLACED with a new heart that is full of His love, desires and faith. Please note that this was an exchange. He took away the old heart and then replaced it with a new one. You do NOT have two hearts!

Jesus has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (Col 1:13)

Jesus has opened our eyes, and turned us from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that we may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith... (Act 26:18)

Jesus has delivered us from the snare of the Devil (2 Tim 2:26)

Jesus has delivered us from the god of this world who had blinded our minds that we believe not... (2 Cor 4:4)

Through Him and by Him we wrestle with principalities, and powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places AND OVERCOME ALL THE POWER OF THE ENEMY. (Eph. 6:12 and Luke 10:19)

The Truth is not just facts about God and Christ just to be understand. The truth is a PERSON. Jesus Christ - HIMSELF is the TRUTH and this living; abiding, dwelling, never ceasing, and always unfolding truth is in us NOW!! Seeing truth as a living person who is our ever present savior within us second by second changes everything. Now we have real person not a doctrine, idea, concept, teaching, principle, custom or ordinance to follow and apply. We do not have a God who is out there or over there. He is not even next to us or within us living in a separated compartment or room within our own selves.

God has placed us into Himself inside of all that is Christ. This is the gospel that we very seldom hear about. Christ Is In God and God is in Christ. We are in Christ and Christ is in us. We are in God and God is in Us. WOW! Do you believe that?

We have the never ceasing LIVING WORD, LIFE, TRUTH, LOVE, VICTORY, WISDOM, SALVATION, FAITH and SANCTIFATION within us now. For you are now filled with all the fullness of God. That means that God has given ALL of Himself to you. You do not just have a portion of God but NOW have All of God because you have Him. This is the gift that He has given you - HIMSELF. Everything that God is, you are. Everything that Christ is, you are now. You are COMPLETE IN HIM!!!

John 14:10-12, "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."


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Vern

 2019/1/14 5:35Profile
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Joined: 2018/9/6
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 Re: YOU ARE NOT A SINNER OR A WORM II

Do you mourn your shortcomings; Do you think you have found the hated monster, sin, that is striving to be your master. Do you think that evil is present when you would do good? The help you need is now in Christ. Who is abiding, living and dwelling within you. God word tells you that you have died with Christ so now by a simple act of faith - take Him at as word. Just look deeply to see that you have died in Christ. He paid all of sin's penalties, and then raised you from the dead to live highest heights of godly life. You are now holy and you can experience this holiness when you know that you can totally depend on Christ within. As you depend on Him you will be filled with extreme joy in seeing Christ's finished work.

Now just let your loving Savior work in you His will, your sanctification by fully counting on Him being willing and powerful enough to do what He says. We live by His life and by His grace. Abiding, not striving nor struggling; looking off unto Him; trusting Him for present power; trusting Him both to will and to do of His great pleasure You can NOW rest in the love of an almighty Savior, in the conscious joy of a complete salvation, a salvation were Christ will literally become the only power for service and a holy life; His Life is the only ground for unchanging joy. May He lead us into the realization of His unfathomable fullness.

How then do we have our faith increased? Only by believing of all that Jesus is now living and abiding within us. Believe all He is for us: His life, His death, His work, He Himself as revealed to us in the Word, to be the subject of our constant thoughts. Not a striving to have faith, or to increase our faith, but a looking off to the Faithful One who becomes out life; a resting in the Loved One entirely, for time and for eternity.

Here, is the secret: It is not by asking how I can I abide in the Vine, but remembering that Jesus is the Vine - the root, stem, branches, twigs, leaves, flowers, fruit, all indeed. Yes, and far more too! He is the soil and sunshine, air and rain -- more than we can ask, think, or desire. Let us not then want to get anything out of Him, but rejoice in being ourselves in Him -- one with Him, and, consequently, with all His fullness. Not seeking for faith to bring holiness, but rejoicing in the fact of your perfect holiness in Christ, let us realize that -- inseparably one with Him -- this holiness is ours, and accepting the fact, find it so indeed.

Just believe right now that you are connected to Christ who is your Life and never ending unlimited supply of Love, Holiness, Faith, Righteousness, Peace and Joy. Now you have the person of Christ living, dwelling and abiding within you and HE is now giving everything you need to experience His complete and full salvation. You are in UNION with Him. You no longer have to "do things" to get Him to work, to bless, to give you a sense of His presence. It is His life of ceaseless and infinite power, love, and holiness being imparted within you every second of every day. You are just a vessel, branch or container of God's Life within you.

Do you know and embrace the fact that Christ is your life, that you have NO other life, that Christ shows Himself through every bumbling aspect of your humanity, that every part of yourself, especially your sin and their flesh, is found only inside of Jesus? It Is finished. What needed to cease has ceased, regardless of the sight of the eyes. You are alive unto God. The secret of abiding is knowing that you abide in Christ and that Christ abides in you and living out from no other place.


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Vern

 2019/1/14 5:38Profile
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 Re:

Cup, I hear what you said about it not mattering how you “feel”. I couldn’t and the Bible could not disagree more: This is a huge issue and not just a matter of theological debate. If we don’t see this issue clearly, we miss the point of salvation and a new heart completely.


Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. - Matthew 10:37


But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, - Romans 6:17

Whom have I in heaven but you? And there is nothing on earth that I desire besides you. - Psalm 73:25

After listening to the king, they went on their way. And behold, the star that they had seen when it rose went before them until it came to rest over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. - Matthew 2:9-10


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Robert

 2019/1/14 7:07Profile
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 Re:

I'm not trying to light a fire but I don't quite understand your answer. I thought feelings came last in our walk. Fact - faith - feeling. The facts are in the word of God, and they never vary. Faith takes its stand with the facts of God's word, and confesses them as true. Feelings may waver; but ultimately, if faith stands, feelings will come into line with the facts. On the other hand, if we start at the wrong end - with feelings rather than fact - we will always end up in trouble. Our feelings change hour by hour and moment by moment. If our life is based on them, it will be as unstable as they are. "The righteous man shall live by faith."

Likewise, I would think it doesn't matter how we may feel at any given moment regarding the fact that we are born again and the new nature and creation in Christ within us is incorruptible and cannot sin. It is a fact we can have faith in regardless of how we feel.

Thank you.


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David Winter

 2019/1/15 8:25Profile
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
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 Re: question...

Not sure if I’m understanding what’s being put forth, so for clarity...
what about conviction??
When a believer sins, who “feels” conviction- the new nature or old nature?


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Fletcher

 2019/1/15 8:43Profile
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Joined: 2006/9/16
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 Re:

It's an excellent question of which I am not sure of what all the particular ends and outs would be in regards to an answer. It is a fact though that Christ bore our old nature entirely at Calvary and through His one unique sacrifice this old nature was slain entirely. If the Church is trying to put the cross back at the center of its belief and practice this should be a major starting point in its efforts I think.

Thank you for your question.


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David Winter

 2019/1/15 9:09Profile
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 Re: YOU ARE NOT A SINNER OR A WORM

This is a much needed discussion, and one that there is much confusion on within the church.

Before we were born again, we were indeed sinners, dead in our sins, and this is why we habitually sinned, because we had a sin nature, and sinning was most natural to us.

The born again child of God is no longer a dirty, rotten sinner, but has been made a new creation in Christ Jesus. The old things have passed away, and all things have become new. (2Corinthians 5:17). The Spirit of God is now abiding in the child of God, and he has been delivered out of the kingdom of darkness and translated into the Kingdom of God's dear Son. (Colossians 1:13)

The child of God is in Christ Jesus, and Jesus is in Him through and by the Holy Spirit. God does not see us anymore as dirty, rotten sinners. "Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—" (Colossians 1:,21,22).

The battle for the Christian is between the flesh and the spirit. We have been set free from sin, but the flesh and the spirit are at war with each other. "For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want." (Galatians 5:17).

The flesh will never be saved but must be crucified, and we must stand on the Word of God that our old sin nature has been crucified with Christ.

We have a choice to make of either walking after the Spirit or the flesh. "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

We can sin if we choose to, but we do not have to sin. "For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:14).

If we attempt to overcome sin in our own strength then we will find ourselves doing the things that we do not want to do, and not doing the things that we know to do.... (Romans 7). Our victory is in Christ. It is through the overcoming life of Christ that we overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil. The self life must be crucified, and we must allow Christ to live His life in us and through us.

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." (Galatians 2:20)




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Mike

 2019/1/15 10:36Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
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 Re:

//The self life must be crucified, and we must allow Christ to live His life in us and through us.//

Folks love to say this but no one I have seen has ever been able to explain how to do this without resorting to mumbo jumbo.

There used to be a poster here who would talk about this a lot and I never could understand what he was saying as a practical matter.


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Todd

 2019/1/15 15:16Profile
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 Re:

Todd,
Andrew Murray and Watchman Nee have books that explain the practical outworking of this.

It is all over the Word. Jesus said that if anyone wants to follow me, that is be His disciple, he must deny himself, and take up his cross. This is Discipleship 101.

Deitrich Bonhoeffer — 'When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die.'


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Mike

 2019/1/15 15:29Profile





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