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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Spirit, Soul, Body?

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TrueWitness
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 Re:

Robert, the spiritual death that Adam experienced at the Fall just means that his spirit had no further relationship or connection to God anymore. It does not mean that his spirit was annihilated. If you want a scripture, look at Proverbs 20:27 - The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord. Nobody living in the Old Testament was born again or had spiritual life in their spirit yet they did have a functioning spirit. While they could not have spiritual life with God in the sense of having the Holy Spirit dwell in them, God could choose to give revelation to certain chosen ones through the spirit. And look at all the occult activity of evil spirits. They can connect with or even inhabit a person's spirit who opens themselves up to their influence. And consider what happens when a person becomes born again. God's Holy Spirit comes to dwell in their spirit. It's not like they don't have a spirit and when they get saved the Holy Spirit is now their spirit.

-Daniel

 2018/12/23 10:21Profile
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Thanks Mike. The Scriptures you provided relate to man after being made alive which was the genesis of my question. for what is true of man before being made alive.

So, we know something is made alive at conversion. I was just trying to figure out if what was dead and then made alive was the spirit of a man.

If it isn’t the spirit of a man then certainly something was dead that had to be made alive again. Jesus said the time is now that men will worship Him in Spirit and truth and Philippians says we worship in Spirit and truth.

Is that new advent of true worship in spirit the Holy Spirit only. Or does it include our spirit revived? Paul says we can pray in our spirit but our mind is unfruitful.

So, the original question for those who believe we have body, soul and spirit and not just body and soul, is it the spirit we have that is “made alive” in Christ? Is it the spirit that is dead in trespass and sin?


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Robert

 2018/12/23 14:31Profile
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 Re:

Robert, the spirit was put into man originally for the function of having communion, fellowship and connection with God. After the fall that functionality was severed and so the spirit is considered dead or to be more accurate and explanatory about it, the spirit is dead TO GOD. Just as when a person dies, their spirit leaves the body and so the spirit no longer has a relationship to the body. Fallen people have spirits that can function and engage with fallen spirits but not the Holy Spirit until and unless they become born again. So in the Bible when you read about someone who is dead in sin or has a dead spirit, it means that the person's spirit is dead to God because they have not received the life giving Holy Spirit from God yet.

-Daniel

 2018/12/23 16:03Profile
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Hi Daniel. Thanks for responding. I understand completely your thinking on this. What you say could absolutely be true. I’m just trying to find out how you and anybody else reaches their conclusion from Scripture. My struggle is that the Scripture says dead and made alive. Clearly the Spirit could have said we are “separated” from God because of sin and “reunited” with God spiritually. In fact, the Bible uses those terms elsewhere in differing contexts. Using terms like dead and alive though have a different ordinary meaning.

Historically, most commentators have said that Adam died spiritually when he fell.


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Robert

 2018/12/23 18:07Profile
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I understand Robert your wanting to get precise answers from the Bible. However, most all of the Bible is written as a narrative. The closest thing we have to systematic theology is found in the books of Romans and Ephesians. So we have to "interpret" scripture to come to truth and this is why there are various doctrines floating around on a particular subject. Even earnest Bible scholars using good exegesis and the counsel of the entire Word of God can have differing conclusions on questions concerning various topics. You've asked for Bible proof on other topics in other threads and I feel your concern. Many answers are clear cut in the Bible and some are not. I'm kind of curious where you are going on this spirit is dead topic. We've already established it doesn't mean annihilated. I would also point you to the parable of the prodigal son. After he came back to his father, the father said, "This son of mine though he was dead is now alive". He wasn't actually physically dead but he was as good as dead to the father because he was cut off from him. See?

 2018/12/23 18:31Profile
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Thanks Daniel.

The thing that started the thread was simply because I was reading in 1 Thessalonians in my yearly reading plan and the passage about body, soul and spirit came up. I just started meditating on its meaning and tried to again come to an understanding by connecting the words and thoughts in that passage with other texts in the Bible. I try to come to an understanding of Him and His ways by using Bible texts with other Bible texts that speak to the same issue and see if a theme starts to emerge. Nothing new to that method. I rely far less solely on others' conclusions. I have taken in a ton of sermons, books and commentaries but I stopped using those as a basis for my conclusions a long time ago. I enjoy and get a lot out of those resources still, but I far more enjoy sitting with a Bible and God to have Him speak into my questions on texts. This particular text, however, has eluded me for a clear and final meaning as has the text I quoted about being "made alive in Christ".


As for establishing the fact that our spirit isn't annihilated, I don't think I would go as far as you have in what has been stated for far. I don't think we have even established for a fact that Adam had a
spirit ( not soul which is clear from Scripture). We've expressed conclusions but establishing that is a stretch.
Far too many people with more maturity than me haven't gotten there on this issue.

Each of us can express our own personal conclusions about topics and that is good as far as it goes. I doubt anyone is going to accept what I conclude about a topic unless I provide my support for the conclusion and that was all I was pressing for from others. Nor would or should anyone accept a position or conclusion merely because a majority of commentators on the forum hold a particular opinion.
Nothing "becomes true" merely because a majority hold to it. Majority opinions have some weight but not enough.

The way I learn in conversations is to ask a question, listen to answers, probe with additional questions to try to get at the underlying assumptions and support for those answers and then try to mutually arrive at an answer that brings a consensus or disagreement. I don't usually learn much if all I all I seek are other people's conclusions, as valid or invalid as they may be. Iron sharpens iron not by only by trading conclusions but also
by challenging assumptions and urging people to think through their own reasons for coming to particular conclusions.

I enjoy finding answers and using the process of searching the Scriptures as the primary means of finding those answers and not just expressing conclusions. I love to hear how God is speaking on a spiritual matter. The purpose of the thread was that I had a question I still haven't answered conclusively for myself yet and wanted to see if other learned believers had arrived at their own conclusion and to understand how they got there.

Thanks for the questions Daniel.




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Robert

 2018/12/24 6:38Profile
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 Re:

Guys,

Perhaps there is another way to approach the question.

One day, after we die or are taken up, the Bible says our earthly bodies will be replaced with perfect resurrected bodies.

Likewise, when we are glorified in that day, the sanctification process of bringing our minds, wills and affections into their consummated glory will be completed and perfected.

What about the "spirit"? Is it appropriate to just conclude or more rightly assume that will happen at death as well?

Or, can we find reason to conclude from Scripture that the spirit that we have at conversion has been implanted by God and is "divine" or supernatural at the time of its provision by God? Is that a major part of what it means for us to be born again? Are we being transformed from the inside out starting with the seed of God being implanted in our souls, the inception of life at the center of our being at the time new birth occurs?

If we view our conversion in major part as the union of our spirit with the Spirit of God in a true union and joining supernaturally together as "one spirit" with the Lord and not just a "relationship" of one entity with another, then that foundation has significant impact on who we are in Christ as children of God . The Bible makes the self same comparison as God relates that marriage is a picture of this supernatural union where two become one.

If that way of thinking is accurate and I think Scripture is clear about that, then it begs the question, how can
the Holy Spirit be joined truly as one with an unholy spirit of man? Is the spirit of man the place where the Holy Spirit of God dwells and lives and thus is it of necessity required to be supernatural in order for that union with the Holy Spirit to occur and be sustained?






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Robert

 2018/12/24 7:27Profile
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 Re:

Robert said:

Quote:
As for establishing the fact that our spirit isn't annihilated, I don't think I would go as far as you have in what has been stated for far.



What about Proverbs 20:27?

The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

You can't dismiss this verse which indicates that we have a spirit that has some functionality. Or do you?

What you said about the Holy Spirit coming into our spirit and making our spirit "alive" I totally agree with.
I understand this to mean that the life of God comes to inhabit our spirit and it is now "alive" and functions as it was originally intended. We now have the possibility of being ruled by our indwelt spirit instead of our darkened mind.

-Daniel

 2018/12/24 9:00Profile
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Gen 7:21 - All flesh that [fn]moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind;
7:22 - of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.

Daniel, Here are two verses using the same word “spirit” as the Proverbs verse you suggested. Apparently animals have a spirit. I wouldn’t think that Paul is referring to this natural animal spirit when he says I pray in my spirit nor do I think that’s the “spirit” that is spoken of when we are said to be “one spirit” with the Lord.


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Robert

 2018/12/24 9:24Profile
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 Re:

I notice that the verse you quoted about animals doesn't refer to the spirit of the animal but instead refers to "nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life". In Hebrew the word for wind and spirit is the same and in this verse you see it mentions breath right before spirit so this use of spirit is talking about the "wind of life" that occupies breathing animals. They stop breathing and they die. It isn't implying that dumb animals have a spirit like humans do. This is a different use of the Hebrew word "spirit". Context is everything.

-Daniel

 2018/12/24 10:37Profile





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