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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Spirit, Soul, Body?

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SteveHale
Member



Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 178
NSW Australia

 Re: Spirit, Soul, Body?

Interesting topic Robert,

I have always pondered how Jesus told us "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Where is your spirit as only body and soul are mentioned being in hell?

Also on the cross Jesus cried out “Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit.” What about soul? Also Stephen when being stoned prayed “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” yet again no mention of soul.

So what my question would be is, where is the spirit of those that go to hell? Did they ever receive one? And those that go to heaven, what becomes of their souls? Is there at conversion a putting in of one and a removal of another?

Blessings Steve


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Steve

 2018/12/22 14:18Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 253
Cambodia

 Re:

HI Mike,

The marrow is what's inside the bone. Physiologically, it is where the physical "life" of the body is. Bone by itself is not alive. Bone without marrow is dead. So, a soul without spirit life is spiritually dead to God.

I don't think the High Priest cut out the marrow from the bone in the sacrifice but maybe it happened. You might know more about that system than I and I would certainly like to know if that is what happened.

What if we are body and soul at birth. But no spirit. That was the inheritance from Adam. A man without spirit cannot commune with God who is spirit. Thus, it is a separation from God but in a dramatic spiritual sense.

We then would have a soul that is alive in one sense but dead spiritually? What if the soul has to be "quickened" made alive as the old believers use to refer to it. What if that quickening is the giving of spirit? I know we get the Holy Spirit but what if we are "made alive" by new birth or as the New Covenant language from Ezekiel 36:26 says, we are given a "new spirit" ?

That was my point about what happened at the Fall. What if Adam experienced spiritual death to his spirit but retained a soul?

I'm asking questions like this because if the answers to my questions are yes, we were born without a spirit, then the wording of a lot of other passages start to make logically connected sense. For example, we have been made alive, we have a new nature and new life. We were spiritually dead. We are now alive to God and able commune spirit to spirit.

Also, with respect to our sins prior to conversion, they all deal with thoughts, deeds and desires. All connected to the soul.

I realize we get the Holy Spirit and if that is what we receive that represents "life", then I'm totally fine with that. No agenda. Just trying to connect dots in Scripture that make sense.

Finally, we can make a lot of sense with this line of understanding of how our spirit can be one spirit with the Lord. And the Corinthian passage about praying, speaking and singing in our spirit and not with our mind can make a great deal of sense. Otherwise, we are left with the mind of the soul being disconnected with the soul itself when we pray in the spirit. That just doesn't make sense to me at all.

Thanks for your response and consideration Mike.


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Robert

 2018/12/22 16:05Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 253
Cambodia

 Re:

Steve asked:

"So what my question would be is, where is the spirit of those that go to hell? Did they ever receive one? And those that go to heaven, what becomes of their souls? Is there at conversion a putting in of one and a removal of another?"

Steve, the answer all depends on where one comes out on the question originally posed.


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Robert

 2018/12/22 16:08Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3239
Louisiana

 Re:

Brother Robert,

It is very clear from scripture that the First Man Adam had a spirit. God created the body of Adam out of the dust of the earth. God breathed the breath of life into Adam (spirit), and Man became a living soul.

When Man sinned, spiritual death occurred, which means separation from God. Man still possessed a spirit, but he could no longer communicate with God.
Jesus came and died on the cross for our sins to reconcile us back to God.


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Mike

 2018/12/22 17:44Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 253
Cambodia

 Re:

Mike,

That is certainly possible. What would lead you to conclude Adam retained spiritual life after the Fall?


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Robert

 2018/12/22 17:56Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4470


 Re:

I agree that this is an interesting topic. There have been discussions in the past on this too.

I remember hearing one preacher (although I cannot remember who) talk about a difference between soulish worship and spiritual worship. He described soulish worship as being emotional whereas spiritual music is, well, spiritually communal.


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Christopher

 2018/12/22 22:54Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3239
Louisiana

 Re:


Robert,

God told Adam that if he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he would die. Sin brought spiritual death to Adam.

Adam died spiritually after he sinned, but his spirit did not cease to exist.


“I remember hearing one preacher (although I cannot remember who) talk about a difference between soulish worship and spiritual worship. He described soulish worship as being emotional whereas spiritual music is, well, spiritually communal.”

Chris,

The emotions are part of the soul of man. If we are led by our emotions then we can easily be deceived.

God is looking for true worshippers that will worship Him in Spirit and in truth. True worship will often affect our emotions. We are commanded to love God with our whole being, spirit, soul, and body.


"YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
(Luke 10:27)


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Mike

 2018/12/23 8:22Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 253
Cambodia

 Re:

Thanks Mike,

God said to Adam that "on the day" you eat of the tree you shall surely die. Now we know that Adam did not physically die on that day. We also agree that Adam was separated from God when he was forced to leave the Garden in a physical way. The question is, did Adam die spiritually "on that day", a far worse death than physical death of course, when he ate the fruit? We know that to commune with God we must have a spirit because God says He is spirit. This takes us back to Steve's question. If the spirit Adam was born with is true spiritual life that could be one with with God. then it can't be evil. So, when, as you suggest, those who are born with that same spiritual life are consigned to Hell by God for unbelief, what happens to that spiritual life ? Is the spirit life which is God's spiritual life, corrupt? Maybe that is getting at the question of what is the "spirit" we are born with?

Here's the thing, when God says that He makes us "alive" in Christ, He obviously isn't talking about physical life. We are already alive in that sense when we come to Christ. It seems necessary then that God is talking about making us spiritually alive in Christ and so in what sense is our spirit that we had before conversion made alive?

To me, it seems to be a strong argument that we must have been dead in the spirit prior to God making us alive in spirit when we came to Jesus. Otherwise, what do you see happening of us when God makes us alive? Clearly, it is an eternal life but is it only our previous life made eternal or is it new life that we possess AND becomes truly a part of our nature?

Mike, I'm also asking for you to graciously share the Scriptures that form the conclusions you are setting forth. I don't want you to have to defend anything, I just want to understand the Biblical passages that you have used and relied on to form the conclusion that you've come to. I lean in one direction but I definitely have not come to a final conclusion so the foundations for your conclusion would be valuable to me personally. Obviously, you have made final conclusions on this and knowing the basis would be most helpful.


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Robert

 2018/12/23 8:49Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3239
Louisiana

 Re:

2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
(Ephesians 2:1)

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
(1 Corinthians 15:22)


“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, and see, the new has come!” (2 Cor. 5:17)


"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
(John 5:24)


Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Yemust be born again. (John 3:5-7).


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Mike

 2018/12/23 9:59Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5006
NC, USA

 Re:

“Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeneness...”

God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
John 4:24

Conclusion: humans are spirit beings housed in a corporeal body.


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Todd

 2018/12/23 10:21Profile





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