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Discussion Forum : Miracles that follow the plow : SURPRISE...SURPRISE!!!

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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi savannah, I'd say having or performing an abortion is a serious sin against God, it's murder. However, God can exploit the evil intention and action of an abortionist to bring about a certain ultimate purpose He may have planned out. We see that God did that in the atoning death of Christ. Those that crucified Him were free to act so wickedly and God indicted them for it. But God exploited their evil intentions and actions to bring about our salvation.


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Oracio

 2018/12/16 12:56Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
Cambodia

 Re:

Hi Oracio and Savannah,

It seems like you agree that God allows sin according to His greater purposes. The difference however is important. Oracio, it sounds like you think God is reacting to the sinful actions of Satan and men and bringing good out of those actions like a counter puncher and I think Savannah is suggesting ( rightly so in my understanding of many Scriptures ) that God plans and determines in advance by intention that Satan and sinful men undertake their sinful actions. Is that a fair dichotomy ? One would say God forsees sinful acts and reacts to bring good out of them and the other would say God arranges the circumstances necessary for the sin to occur without actually committing the sin.

Acts 4:27–28

for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. (ESV)


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Robert

 2018/12/16 14:08Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi Robert, while I agree that there’s a big and important difference between our view on this, I would not describe or define my view as God “reacting” to the sinful actions of men; that could give the impression of God being surprised in a sense which would undermine His omniscience as it is defined in Scripture.

I believe Scripture teaches that God uses His omniscience to orchestrate all things in accordance with His perfect/holy character. This orchestration of God is sometimes direct and sometimes passive; that is, sometimes He directly does certain things (such as performing miracles like the virgin birth, raising the dead, or bringing certain calamities upon individuals as a judgment); and other times He passively permits certain things to come to pass while simultaneously using those things to carry out His ultimate purposes, which is what I mean in saying that God “exploits” the sinful intentions and actions of men.

But I would never conclude, based on what I understand to be the plain testimony of Scripture, that God would ever tempt anyone or put it in the heart of anyone to commit any sin against His own moral law. And that is where we differ it seems. Your view seems to allow for that kind of “direct” working of sin in men’s hearts and actions (correct me if I’m wrong). I see that as making God out to be the author of sin in a way that contradicts the plain teaching of Scripture regarding the holiness of God (His separateness from and His righteous anger toward all sin).

Regarding Acts 4:27-28, I don’t see it as being irreconcilable with my view of God’s omniscience, omnipotence and sovereignty. Again, it is an instance of God planning and predestining to exploit the sinful intentions and actions of men to bring about His ultimate plan of redemption through Christ. Hope that helps answer your q.


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Oracio

 2018/12/16 17:29Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265


 Re: God cannot sin. It is impossible.



Oracio writes,

"I would never conclude, based on what I understand to be the plain testimony of Scripture, that God would ever tempt anyone or put it in the heart of anyone to commit any sin against His own moral law...I see that as making God the author of sin in a way that contradicts the plain teaching of Scripture..."

"I'd say having or performing an abortion is a serious sin against God, it's murder. However, God can exploit the evil intention and action of an abortionist to bring about a certain ultimate purpose He may have planned out."

_________

You called taking the life of an innocent child, "a serious sin", you said, "it's murder."

In 2 Samuel God did not exploit anyone, but it is written that God Himself did this,

"... the LORD struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David...On the seventh day the child died."

Going back to my question,

If a man impregnates a virgin he is not married to, and the father of that 13 year old virgin, who (the father) is also a judge, presses charges against the man, and presides as judge over the case, and sentences that child in the womb to be aborted, would that father and judge be guilty of committing sin? 

So, If God does something, that, if you or I, or someone in authority were to do that would be sinful, how is it that the thing done is not sinful anymore?

I think you've answered already when you said,

"If you are referring to God taking David's child, I would not call that committing an evil act considering that God alone has the prerogative to take a life whether early on or later on in life."

I agree that, "God alone has the prerogative", not only in this case, but in every case, whether He Himself does so, or causes others to do so, by putting it into their hearts to do so, as here in Revelation 17:13,17,

“These have one purpose and they give their power and authority to the beast...For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God should be fulfilled."

The words you use to describe what is taking place in Scripture and in history, are less offensive on the surface. But it is plain for all who read that what I've stated is true nonetheless.

Again,

If God does something, that, if you or I, or someone in authority were to do that would be sinful, how is it that the thing done is not sinful anymore?

A. Because God does it!

And in your own words, because "God alone has the prerogative."

 2018/12/16 20:11Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi savannah, you are comparing an abortionist murdering an unborn baby with God taking the life of a child in His providence. If you can't see the difference we'll have to agree to disagree.

By that line of reasoning, we'd have to say that God can lie, steal, commit adultery, etc. and that it is not sin for Him to do any of those things because He is God and does whatever He pleases without being guilty of sin. Yet that clearly contradicts so many scriptures that declare the holiness of God.

It does in fact sound like you are making God out to be the author of sin now, which is sad and disappointing to hear. Yet I can't say I'm too surprised because I see this happening often when your view is followed to it's logical conclusion.



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Oracio

 2018/12/16 20:48Profile





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