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Discussion Forum : Miracles that follow the plow : SURPRISE...SURPRISE!!!

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dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I’ve read through this entire thread and have say.........Wow , you guys are way over my head , on both sides , enjoyed reading this and trying to think it through .


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D.Miller

 2018/12/7 19:16Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5129
NC, USA

 Re:

Robert-

Could God make a square circle, or make 1+1=3?


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Todd

 2018/12/7 19:46Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1084
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: quick question

So does/has God failed at anything He tried to do?
Or Does God exercise Himself in ways He already knows won’t bring about the desired outcome?


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Fletcher

 2018/12/7 20:46Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1827


 Re: ,Now I know

And he said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for NOW I KNOW that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son from Me." (Gen 22:12 - the angel of the Lord restraining Abraham as he sacrificed Isaac)

NOW I KNOW? I thought the Lord knew all things beforehand.

?


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David Winter

 2018/12/7 22:20Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 999
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

David if you read the couple of chapters previous that conclusion dismisses itself.


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Marvin

 2018/12/7 23:14Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1827


 Re:

In what way?


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David Winter

 2018/12/8 0:44Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 999
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

Gen 18:17 The LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,
Gen 18:18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Gen 18:19 For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him."

God already knew what he was going to do with Abraham, "and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?"

Gen 22:18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."

God's knowledge of Abraham's obedience was known by God in Genesis 18, Abraham didn't know it until he had followed through.

God's omniscience is not some made up thing, its found in Genesis and proceeds to Revelation.
As I said in an earlier post, all prophecy is God's determination of what the future will be, Abraham was not fated, coerced, forced or manipulated, God brought forth his plans and Abrahams obedience played an active part.


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Marvin

 2018/12/8 1:21Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 282
Cambodia

 Re:

Todd, I don't know about a circle becoming a square, because I don't see that in Scripture and so I try not to imagine about such things on my own. What Scripture says is that He can turn the Sun back in time. He can make something out of nothing. He can take dust and make it into a living soul. Finally, when God says nothing is impossible with Him, I'm pretty much done thinking how that statement is an exaggeration or can't mean what it says because I can't imagine it.


My whole thought and reasoning process has been completely given over to just believing what God says about Himself and basically if He said it, then that is the plumb line and the reference point of truth. I've given up on my own personal opinions. Relieves me from the burden of trying to think outside my pay grade.


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Robert

 2018/12/8 4:15Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 282
Cambodia

 Re:

JFW,

God has a desire that no man should perish but many do.
God is completely in control of whether they perish or not and when they perish it is was their sin that caused it, but God did the "perishing". He commanded that which He did not desire in the broader sense. God did in fact desire that they perish because He isn't compelled to do anything except by the necessities of His own character.

Thus, God may desire to do two things at once. He may hate the sinner and also love the sinner at the same time.
How He does that I have no idea. But Scripture says both things are true. He is against His enemies in one sense and He loves them in another sense.

So to answer your question, God hates evil, He hates suffering but He uses them to accomplish His greater purposes and His greater desires.

If God wants to display the depths and perform a lavish display of His mercy, grace and love by a predetermined plan using evil men to murder His most cherished Son, then you can see two desires at work at the same time. He loves His Son deeply and desires He only experience His love and joy for Him. While at the same time, He desires Him to suffer immensely for His very enemies. One desire is subsumed to another desire for the sake of God displaying the glory of His grace in spite of another's horrendous evil nature.

Men get into a trap when they start to project their own human limitations and expectations onto God who is able to maintain two desires at the same time but to subsume one in order to accomplish the other. Actually, men do this as well. We often have competing desires and ultimately choose to act on the desire that is the greater or wiser desire overall.

Most men think God subsumes His desire to be sovereign in all things in order that men might be sovereign in their own affairs. God is much bigger than that. He is able to allow men to act in apparent complete independence of God's sovereign planning over the affairs of men and yet, when it is all said and done, they acted in complete accord with His ultimate plan.

Just because we lack the intellectual capacity to grasp how that gets done doesn't mean we have to gloss over or reinterpret the Scriptures that establish that. I'm not saying you do that.

People would do well to stop projecting onto God themselves and their preferences of what God is like. If God says something repeatedly about Himself, we should try to synthesize that with all other Scriptures and if tension gets created in that, then we should accept the tension or discomfort and agree both things are true even if in our limitations we don't think they can be.





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Robert

 2018/12/8 4:41Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1084
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Robert

Thank you for responding, that was a well articulated and otherwise interesting position- some of which being less familiar than the rest.
It isn’t my intention to argue so I won’t take it point for point attempting to breakdown your position, rather I’d like to inquire of you further in how while holding that position you address scriptures that run counter to it...

An easy example would be;
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
the issue here that is in contention is “I would vs ye would not” ...
A battle of the wills so to speak as the term “would” in the Greek means will in its various forms-
So here we have God saying that His will was thwarted by the will of man, in this case those in Jerusalem...
You had mentioned that you simply read the scripture and allow God to say about Himself what He will attempting to synthesize that- here in this famous passage He makes a clear statement about Himself and the dynamics of His interactions with humans that (for me) run counter to your aforementioned position.
Would you share how you synthesized this?
The reason I ask is, when I attempted to apply your position to this passage it either required me to compromise the integrity of the scripture (make it say something it doesn’t) or compromise the inherent logic (make it say something crazy) found in the passage.

Thanks in advance!


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Fletcher

 2018/12/8 6:02Profile





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