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Discussion Forum : Miracles that follow the plow : SURPRISE...SURPRISE!!!

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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1940
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi Robert, from reading your last post I think we're right back to square one in our disagreement here. Regarding those particular passages of Scripture which speak of God using certain evil actions of men to accomplish His ultimate purposes, I believe you are misunderstanding and misinterpreting them, with all due respect. I know that those are common passages cited by some to prove that God is the author of sin at least in some cases. You seem to see those passages as teaching that God directly works evil in men's hearts, which again, I think would implicate God as the author of sin. I believe there is a better, more biblical interpretation and explanation than what you seem to propose, an interpretation and explanation which I've already presented here so I don't think there's a need for me to do that again. We may just have to agree to disagree.


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Oracio

 2018/12/6 12:00Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 4965
NC, USA

 Re:

//We may just have to agree to disagree.//

That’s what usually happens, but the discussion has been good.

For me, personally, it is simply a matter of defending God’s character. Of course, HE doesn’t need me to defend Him, thank goodness.

But other folks who read these threads might get wrong ideas from things that are stated about God without a whit of discomfiture.

I certainly don’t have it all figured out, but God doesn’t toss folks in hell for something He made them do or not do, or because He determined eons ago who He’d toss there and who He wouldn’t and there’s nothing anyone can do about it.

That much I do know.


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Todd

 2018/12/6 12:34Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1940
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

ditto Todd


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Oracio

 2018/12/6 12:43Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 161
Cambodia

 Re:

John 19:24 - so they said to one another, “Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it to see whose it shall be.” This was to fulfill the Scripture which says, “They divided my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.” So the soldiers did these things,

John 19:28 - After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the Scripture), “I thirst.”

Acts 1:16 - “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

It seems there is a very deliberate way of wording in these texts concerning prophesy. Events happen to fulfill the previous declaration of God that those events will in fact happen. This is entirely different from the idea of foreknowledge. Knowing the future events and predicting them in advance is one thing. Declaring the future and then arranging the events of life to fulfill that declaration is an entirely different thing. It seems that the wording of these texts is that events happen to fulfill God's declaration that they would happen without doubt. Not merely a prediction but a declaration. That is what prophesy from God is as opposed to merely prediction. The future is no surprise to God not because of omniscience of that future but because of His sovereignty over that future.

Open theism goes the extra step of asserting that He isn't even omniscient of the future, much less in control of it.


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Robert

 2018/12/7 7:31Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 4965
NC, USA

 Re:

//Open theism goes the extra step of asserting that He isn't even omniscient of the future, much less in control of it.//

This is an extremely common but vital mis-statement of what open theism asserts.

An open theist does not believe “the future” actually exists NOW. Therefore, God is still omniscient because he knows all there is to know. There simply is no future RIGHT NOW to know.

Straight from the horse’s mouth:

https://youtu.be/gApXDGjyksw


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Todd

 2018/12/7 10:13Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 819
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


When God uses instruments to accomplish his purposes, that does not make him the author of sin. Yet God called the Babylonians down on Israel. God designed and secured the death of his own Son, God chastens, corrects, rebukes through many ways and instruments.

There are plenty of texts that warn us of reaping what we sow, and when we have sown evil we become victims of evil. God sees to it this working of his word stands firm. His word stands firm to accuse us of our sins against him, it stands firm to declare punishments for repeated sinfulness, it warns and threatens and declares a guaranteed certainty that evil will be punished.

As in reference to God's own Children he promises to Chasten his own children, and in fact if we are not chastened we are not his children. So, God may in fact bring upon us hard and difficult things to chasten us for our sins and errors.

The Christian has no deist god who stands afar and beholds evil in the world as it affects all of us...then has nothing to say, nothing to do or any influence upon it whatsoever. The Christian God is at work in the world in all peoples everywhere, he is well acquainted with every single person and knows the thoughts and intents of all humanity at every moment all through the course of human history.

Satan is God's devil and God may use him to achieve his purposes if he wishes. We see this in scripture as well, Job, David, Michaiah, Saul.

God is no sinner, God does not tempt us to sin, but God is also much smarter and much more powerful and is able to use his enemies to accomplish his purposes just as easy as he will his own children.

God is able to make the universe from nothing...and able to make from something, something altogether different.

For some, they don't have a chastening God, they have a God that only gives them gifts and when something bad happens its always the devil. We all know the devil comes to steal kill and destroy, but to blame the devil for everything is silly and shows a lack of discerning. To blame God for everything is equally silly and shows a lack of biblical understanding. To blame ourselves for all evil is equally ignorant of biblical truth, for some their world is merely materialistic, all that happens is an outcome from what is natural, never what is supernatural or soulish.

It takes a man or woman of God to navigate these issues, it takes a Child of God in touch with their Heavenly Father to know what is the real causation for a things or circumstance.


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Marvin

 2018/12/7 10:15Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 819
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

Todd: brother, that stuff is pure double-speak.

God knows the future because he is designing the future, he is planning and purposing what is now to achieve what he wants in our future and his future glory. God makes the future, we don't make it, we are simply creatures of time, ignorant and incapable of knowing what tomorrow holds. This not true for God.

The whole point to keeping "omniscience" in the open theist vocabulary is to provide a cover for a heretical view of God's omniscience and omnipotence.

We have a bible filled with prophecy to be fulfilled and that which has been fulfilled. Prophecy is God's ability to plan and determine the future from his vantage point.

This quote is proof positive of errant theology and cultic denigration of God..."There simply is no future RIGHT NOW to know."

What that must mean is "we cannot know if Jesus will return", we are told that he will, but in that statement there can be no room for faith in God. We cannot know any 'right now' future.

All of these little 'perspectives' are not mere perspectives they are seeds of error that have ye to sprout their evil intentions and create more unbelief in God's word...and in God himself.

Will there be any faith left in the world? By way of open theism...what faith is left is being chipped away by theologians of error and those whom agree with them.


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Marvin

 2018/12/7 10:26Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 4965
NC, USA

 Re:

You can argue against the position all you want and I would agree with you on some points but I don’t like when an opposing view is misrepresented either intentionally or unintentionally.

Bottom line is that open theists do not deny God’s omniscience or omnipotence ; they don’t even define them differently.

You simply believe the future is settled now; they don’t.


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Todd

 2018/12/7 14:19Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 819
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Todd, yes, you've brought it down to 'future', but its going to leap away from future as soon as you begin to explain the future's non-existence...and that non-existence is due to a limitation of God...so it is God and not the future that comes into question.

It's double speak. Yes, they do. I know you think Ive read nothing, spoken to no one else on the subject but I have and they do not relegate open theism to 'future', they relegate it to Gods open-ness and how they interpret scripture to validate that open-ness to all varieties of human action, angelic, devil and natural.

It's all about God's limitations expressed in terms of open-ness...and how God has learned to dodge the bullets of human will.


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Marvin

 2018/12/7 16:36Profile
CofG
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 161
Cambodia

 Re:

Being the misrepresenter in the crowd :), omnisceince is a concept of knowing all things, not just those that can be known by humans and their limitations of mind, time and space. One just can't redefine words and thus exclude what doesn't fit ones' philosophical views. Omniscience is a knowing of all that can be known by God, not a knowing of all that can be known by man. That's where the open theist is guilty of double talk.


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Robert

 2018/12/7 16:37Profile





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