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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Union with Christ. The forest and the trees.

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 Union with Christ. The forest and the trees.

A lot of passionate conversation goes on about what or who caused us to be saved. Some of it healthy and some of it not.

If we changed the focus of our understanding of salvation to its rightful core and Biblical focus, then I think and hope that much of the passionate disagreement we've seen on the site of late might be avoided. At its' core, salvation is the real union of our souls with Jesus Christ, becoming a new creation, Christ in us but also, the actual spiritual oneness or union our spirit has through the Holy Spirit with Jesus. Being one with Jesus is our wisdom, our righteousness, our sanctification and our redemption because Jesus is all those things.

I don't think there is one person on this site who would say that they were a participant even remotely in their new birth and creation of new spiritual life or their subsequent union with Jesus.

Too often we reduce this issue to some mechanical process. It isn't. God creates life where there was none and He joins us together in a mystical union with Jesus, His beloved Son. This mystical union isn't subject to dissection with a microscope. There are pictures in the Bible of this spiritual union like the physical union found in marriage where two become one flesh or the joining of a branch to a vine. All natural pictures however fall far short of the miraculous reality that they shadow. The reality is that we are truly one spirit with Jesus and that is what it means to be saved.

The Bible calls men to repent and believe. The Bible makes clear that some people "believe" but their faith is not a living faith. The Bible makes clear that the word of Jesus may land on or in a heart, but it is not efficacious, it does not bear true new life because the heart is not "pure and noble". It looks like the seed of the word has taken root but it has not. Man, in the end, however, is a "recipient" of new life and new birth and of union with Jesus. None I hope would argue that new life isn't received.

In order to be saved, we must be born again. Men may want to use a microscope to dissect new birth and union with Jesus. In the end, no matter what camp we come from, we have to admit that we are born again not by the will of the man or of the flesh.

I'm not trying to reignite a blaze in the forest. The point I'm trying to make is that like everything else in Christendom, there is a battle that goes on between the natural ( what man can do ) and with the supernatural ( what only God creates and does ). The crazy thing is that not one of us born naturally can take credit for anything we do that is right or good even in the natural.
Whatever we do that is good was because of something we received from God in natural birth. What do we have naturally that we did not receive by natural creation? What we do in life is not done in some kind of a vacuum.
What we do is a direct product of our natural birth. We have a Creator. We don't self create.

Back to the essential point. If everyone would focus on the reality of the new birth, what it is, what it accomplishes and what it looks like in the man or woman of God, then we can more fully appreciate, give praise for and live out the life of Christ in us and what it means to be a child of God.

Western Christianity has gotten far too absorbed in the "legal" side of justification. We are actually justified because Jesus is actually one with our soul and His righteousness is ours not just because of a legal declaration based on the validity of our faith but rather most importantly because our soul and Jesus's spirit are together as one. When God sees our soul, He sees Jesus at the same time. His righteousness is ours by union and His righteousness over time becomes our very nature by that union and through communion with Him on a glory by glory, day by day transformational miraculous God creating basis.

New birth and union with Jesus in mystical but extremely real and active and life giving reality is the very essence of what it means to be a child of God.

There is far too much use of a microscope in our discussions of salvation and far too little use of a telescope.

Men of old understood and talked much more about union with Jesus as our ground and source of salvation. We would do well to move our focus to that. An effort to make far too many people feel warranted in an unwarranted way that they are saved ( done in misplaced compassion and desire ) is the reason why so many people focus on what we have done to be born again. We can make ourselves and others feel all too comfortable that more are saved than actually are if we can just focus on the issue of "do I believe". If we merely focus on faith and on our experience and perception of how we exercised it and of how we got born again by it, we will miss the forest for the trees.

God completely as the sole Creator is the cause of all things good, especially as the creator of spiritual new birth and the union of our souls with Jesus. This single issue of union with Christ is what separates us from a perishing mankind. The hope of glory is Christ in us.

God causes the new birth by a revelation of Jesus to the soul. That revelation is accomplished most of the time by the preaching of the word of Christ. We are called to scatter the seed, the factual truth of Jesus and Him crucified, and then to water the seed that has taken root. God gives the seed life and God gives the growth.

If we moved all our spiritual attention to the required new birth and union with Christ, I would hazard a guess that much debate would end, greater focus would be on seeking God to create new life, something out of nothing, we would correctly discern what true salvation looks like.....union of our spirit and soul with Jesus and communion with Jesus, and we would expect far more from supernatural life in Christ from and for His people than most do presently. Branch and Vine. Husband and Bride. Jesus one by the Spirit with the "new man". Praising God for His unimaginable grace that is Christ.




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Robert

 2018/12/3 5:08Profile
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 Re: Union with Christ. The forest and the trees.

Many of us have forgotten that Jesus Christ was the LAST ADAM who would totally nullify and completely set aside all that the first Adam did. Christ became the NEW HEAD of the entire race. He entered into the entire human race when he was born a human.

Now that means that the whole of mankind was with Him and IN Him as much as they were once IN the First Adam. No one was excluded by what the first Adam did and no one was excluded by what Christ did. That is impossible.

When Christ was born all of us were there in Him.
When Christ was baptized all of us were there in Him.
When Christ was tempted in the wilderness and overcame all of us were there in Him.
When Christ performed his many miracles all of us were there in Him.
When Christ was in Gethsemane all of us were there in Him.
When Christ obeyed the law and God all of us were there in Him. His obedience became OUR obedience.
When Christ died on the cross all of us were in Him and we died with Him.
When Christ was buried we were in Him and we were buried with Him by baptism into death.
When Christ was raised up from the dead we were raised up from the dead with Him.
The old man was Crucified with Him and we died to the law.


Now this is the Gospel of Christ - but there is even more. Christ was crucified BEFORE the foundation of the world and ALL of us were in Him then.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

1Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.




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Vern

 2018/12/3 8:09Profile
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 Re:

I actually thought that the topic of union with Jesus was one we could all gather round and say Amen to in unison. Perhaps I was overconfident or naive.


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Robert

 2018/12/3 9:27Profile
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 Re: brother Vern

You wrote, “When Christ was born all of us were there in Him.
When Christ was baptized all of us were there in Him.
When Christ was tempted in the wilderness and overcame all of us were there in Him.
When Christ performed his many miracles all of us were there in Him.
When Christ was in Gethsemane all of us were there in Him.
When Christ obeyed the law and God all of us were there in Him. His obedience became OUR obedience.
When Christ died on the cross all of us were in Him and we died with Him.
When Christ was buried we were in Him and we were buried with Him by baptism into death.
When Christ was raised up from the dead we were raised up from the dead with Him.
The old man was Crucified with Him and we died to the law.”

Does the Bible actually say this?
In my reading there is a consistent contrast between “were - shall be”
ie; Romans 5:19

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding....


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Fletcher

 2018/12/3 9:35Profile
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 Re: brother Robert

Yes and perhaps we all can (at least) agree that what God Himself desires is for us to be in union with Christ:)
Tho the when,where,how,why seems to be debatable:/


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Fletcher

 2018/12/3 9:38Profile
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 Re: Romans 5:15

Different translations.

(ASV)  For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous.

(BBE)  Because, as numbers of men became sinners through the wrongdoing of one man, even so will great numbers get righteousness through the keeping of the word of God by one man.

(CEV)  Adam disobeyed God and caused many others to be sinners. But Jesus obeyed him and will make many people acceptable to God.

(Darby)  For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

(ISV)  For just as through one man's disobedience many people were made sinners, so also through one man's obedience many people will be made righteous.

(KJV)  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

(KJV-BRG)  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

(LITV)  For as through the one man's disobedience the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many shall be constituted righteous.

(RV)  For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous
.
(TLV)  For just as through the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of one man, many will be set right forever.

(Webster)  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

(YLT)  for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.


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Vern

 2018/12/3 10:42Profile
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 Re: brother Vern

Right,... so are you seeing the same thing?
“Shall be or will be made” in the future tense (potential) isn’t the same as “are or were” in a definitive (absolute) sense-
Again perhaps I’m reading too much into the verbiage of your declaration ?


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Fletcher

 2018/12/3 10:50Profile
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 How do we become one with Christ?

We can do NO SUCH THING! We do not and could not enter into union with the Lord Jesus Christ. We are incapable of doing such a thing. It is IMPOSSIBLE. If we tried for the rest of our life we could never know Jesus as He really is.

Here is the truth - God has already united you with Christ Jesus. That is your present reality

1 Corinthians 1:30

New International Version (©1984) "It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption."

New Living Translation (©2007) "God has united you with Christ Jesus. For our benefit God made him to be wisdom itself. Christ made us right with God; He made us pure and holy and He freed us from sin."

Wait .... Did you get that? Christ has made you one with God and you are NOW righteous, pure, holy and He has set you free from sin.

The Father has already put us into Christ; all I did was respond with YES! when the Spirit opened my eyes to see Him alone in whom I dwell.


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Vern

 2018/12/3 10:51Profile
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 Re: How do we become one with Christ?

Brother Vern. Your first post made it sound like all mankind is “in Christ”. Am I misunderstanding your first post?


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Robert

 2018/12/3 10:56Profile
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 Re: In Christ

The whole human race was in the first Adam because he was the head of mankind in that he represented all mankind. Every single person was in him. No one was excluded. We were all in his seed. When he sinned, we all sinned in him.

The whole human race was in the Last Adam, Jesus Christ, because He was the NEW head of mankind in that He now represented all mankind. Every single person was in Him. No one was excluded. We were all in His seed. When He obeyed, we all obeyed in Him.

It was the LAST ADAM who would totally nullify and completely set aside all that the first Adam did. Christ was the NEW HEAD of the entire race. He entered into the entire human race when he was born a human.

What the first Adam did affected all of mankind. What Christ did also affected all of mankind. How could it not?

Now that means that the whole of mankind was with Him and IN Him as much as they were once IN the First Adam. No one was excluded by what the first Adam did and no one was excluded by what Christ did. That is impossible.


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Vern

 2018/12/3 12:39Profile





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