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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : tongues

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todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Quote:
"Todd, I dont know what it is to "start using this gift regularly...." Its not that I have much control in this. I dont really "know" the language. Im afraid to get into a situation of self-hypnosis."

That's totally understandable. I once felt the very same way. I suppose it's how you think about the gift. Do you see it as a gift that just comes upon you at times, or a gift that [i]you have[/i]? I think that if you've ever spoken in tongues you [i]have[/i] that gift and can use it whenever you choose to. Just like if you got a weight lifting set for Christmas from your earthly father. Now the set is yours and you can go and lift whenever you choose to. But maybe that is not a totally accurate understanding. But it has been my experience. Could it be that you have more control over it than you think?

 2005/7/5 14:13Profile
free
Member



Joined: 2005/6/26
Posts: 55


 Re: tongues

Todd, you wrote

Do you see it as a gift that just comes upon you at times, or a gift that you have?

Thats a neat question I never thought of asking myself. Are tongues a once and for all gift, like Salvation? Or is it one that is given for a certain purpose (edification) for a certain time (in times of great need). Is there anything in the Bible that can enlighten us on this? On the occasions its been given me, it was at times of special needs. I guess God wanted to impress upon me of His presence in my particular circumstance at those particular times. It was important for me to know that in a real way, as I was immobilised by fear.

If the giving and the receiving of a gift is within my control, how much can I account for it being "me" rather than Him.

I hope Im not splitting hair here. I tend to want to err on the side of caution but I guess thats too pragmatic. I dont want to make light of a gift given by God.

 2005/7/5 14:34Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

free,
Again you raise some good questions to consider.

Here's some Scriptures that I think are relevant.

Romans 11:29
"for the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable."

It seems clear from this verse that if God gives you a gift then that's that. You have it.

Acts 3:6
"But Peter said, 'I do not possess silver and gold, [b][i]but what I do have[/i] I give to you[/b]: In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene- walk!' And seizing him by the right hand, he raised him up; and immediately his feet and his ankles were strengthened."

Peter [b]had[/b] something that was able to make a lame man well. Peter, a man with flesh, [i]had[/i] something supernatural, and he used it. What did he have? Perhaps a gift of healing, perhaps a gift of faith, but for sure power. Peter had power to heal sick people.

The trick is that it didn't simply come from himself. He didn't create it. It was given to him by God (see v. 12). It's God's power, given to Peter. I see it like a weapon given by God to his son. God gives his son a weapon and then the son has it to use whenever he chooses to. It seems that in this case (Peter healing the beggar) the weapon was simply the name of Jesus and the trigger was pulled by faith (see v. 16).

Acts 28:8
"And it came about that the father of Publius was lying in bed afflicted with recurrent fever and dysentery; and Paul went in to see him and after he had prayed, he laid his hands on him and healed him."

Who healed him? Paul did. Paul healed this sick man. But it was God's power which Paul had. But Paul had to cooperate with God and step out in faith for the power to flow.

It seems that functioning in the gifts always involves cooperating with God. And we can be sure that our loving and patient Father wants us, His children, to grow strong and be built up. If He has given us a special gift that makes us stronger, why not use it anytime?

1 Cor. 12:7
"But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good...."

One of these manifestations is tongues (see v. 10). Even tongues is for the common good. Because the stronger and more blessed you are, the more you will strengthen and be a blessing to others.

I think that the gift might come forth stronger when you're in a time of great need because you might need more urgent building up if your inner parts are being broken down.

 2005/7/6 2:46Profile
free
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Joined: 2005/6/26
Posts: 55


 Re: tongues

God bless you Todd. Your highlighting of

Romans 11:29
"for the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable."

is powerful and open up a whole new understanding of the Lord's work in my life for me. And thanks also for clarifying what the gift was for. you said:

Even tongues is for the common good. Because the stronger and more blessed you are, the more you will strengthen and be a blessing to others.

Since "gifts and calling" in Romans 11:29 are said in one breath, I take it that the gift given me has a calling. And the calling is to be strong for others. Yes, I truly believe that Christians are best not seen to fall into deep despair. When the world is falling apart, we shouldnt.

Thanks for your support.

 2005/7/6 4:33Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

free,

You're very welcome.
Glad I could be of help to you about this.

Interesting insight you bring on Romans 11:29. I had never thought of that. But I think you might be right.

Blessings on your adventure in God.

 2005/7/6 12:03Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

todd writes

Quote:
Romans 11:29
"for the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable."

It seems clear from this verse that if God gives you a gift then that's that. You have it.


mmm? but is 'tongues' this kind of gift? I Corinthians 12:1 does not have the word 'gift' in its original, and the list is preceded by the phrase 'the manifestation of the Spirit'. Now Romans 11:29 does not say that the 'gifts and calling[u]s[/u] of God are without repentace' but that that 'gifts and calling (singular) are without repentance.

You will be aware the 'being married' or 'being single' is referred to as a charisma earlier in 1 Corinthians. (1 Cor 7:7) In your scenario how would this play out? If the 'charisma of singleness' is 'without repentance' what happens to it when the person marries?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/8 6:21Profile









 Re: 2 cents more....

Shalom to all,

Personally, I don't believe that anyone has carte blanche" "Power". I don't even see Jesus excercising such ability before the cross when He was here. After the cross, He moved at will and did amazing things that were very supernatural (clue).
You may recall that Jesus was ever slipping away to be with the Father? Why is that? Yes, it was to pray, but it was also to get His marching and speaking orders. "What's next"?
See, Jesus said that He did not say or do anything, unless the Father told Him too. That is why He had to wait 4 days to go and raise up Lazarus. Jesus only needed faith the size of a grain of mustard seed to raise up Lazarus. Why? Because He had been alone with the Father, and the Father told Him "now, go and raise up Lazarus". With that, Jesus had all the power of the throne of God backing Him up.
As disciples, dare we do any different? I am of the conclusion here that we do not see this kind of "power" in the church because nobody is willing to spend the time with the Father and walk and speak in obedience to Him. We are too confident in ourselves, our talents and "gifts" and the world pays the price.
Even before we would receive such direction from the Father, there must be worship. As Len Ravenhill said, we have replaced "devotion" with "commotion". The Father has written "ICABOD" over the door and Jesus is outside knocking, trying to get in, while we encourage one another that we have plentious of goods and are in need of nothing.
I do believe, that the manifest power is available. Jesus told His disciples that they would do the things He did, and even greater things. Well, Jesus was obedient, even unto death on the cross. If we are going to do the things Jesus did, we must be obedient as well. Obedient to the Law? More than that, spend time with the Father, and through the leading of His Holy Spirit do and say what He tells us.
What do we do if He is silent? Why we are silent as well. Seems simple enough. But in our "busyness", divine things take a back seat to what ever else we make time for. That is to me, the root of the problem.
If we were busy learning from the Father and doing His will, we would not need to be having this discussion at all. We would have much more fruitful things to do.
The lack of "power" in our lives is sure proof that you and I do not spend near enough time alone, with our Father.
Ghandi once said that if christians lived like the bible teaches, India would be won in one day. ONE DAY! That's over a billion people. If this were true, the whole world could be won in a week or so....if only....we lived....like the bible teaches us too. Oh the shame of my life. The foolish things I spend my time on when I could be alone......with the Father. God help us all.
Jesus said that not everyone will enter in, but those who do the "will" of His Father. This means that there are many who will be attempting to get in, but will be turned away. Will it be you? Will it be me? Do you know Him? Does He know you? Do I know Him? Does He really know me? If I've really "laid down my life for His life", why am I not spending more time with the Father with Whom I have audience anytime by the blood of Jesus? Tough questions for me. What about you?

in remorse and regret,

Lahry

 2005/7/8 7:52
free
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Joined: 2005/6/26
Posts: 55


 Re:

Lahry, you have moved the conversation a bit from tongues to obedience to the Father. I do, absolutely agree with you BTW, on everything you said about the necessity to spend more time with the Father. Please elaborate on how that has to do with tongues. Unless you are meaning that we should not seek "gifts" but the relationship.

I have to add that I was a little troubled with my own experience on account of my earlier feeling about tongues. I was once living in a city (wont give name) in which practically every church I went to, had people loudly speaking in tongues. I felt that even as it unsettled me somewhat, as a new believer, how much more would it to unbelievers. Some of the visitors tell me that they are downright repulsed by it and never went back. I once brought this up with a church leader who completely shut me off by saying that I should not talk about things I do not know. I guess because of my earlier scepticism, I had wondered if I actually spoke in tongues and needed clarification. The mind is a very dangerous place, you see. Anyway, when in doubt, be conservative, as they say. If I have any control over the use of tongues at all, I will try not to speak it in company so as not to stumble anyone. Didnt Paul say that we should in fact not use it in church?

 2005/7/8 10:32Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Quote:
"mmm? but is 'tongues' this kind of gift?"

I believe it is. All throughout 1 Cor. 12 (verses 4, 9, 28, 30, 31) this same exact word (charisma) is used.

Are you implying that speaking in tongues is not a "gift" (charisma) but it is a "manifestation" of the Spirit?

After mentioning each of the "manifestations" of the Spirit, in 1 Cor. 12:31 Paul says, "But earnestly desire the greater gifts (charismas)." Doesn't that make it clear that all the "manifestations" he just mentioned are gifts (charismas)? Tongues is mentioned in the verse right before.

Look at Romans 12:6-7:
"And since we have gifts (charismas) that differ according to the grace given to us, let each exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, accoriding to the proportion of his faith, if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching..."

Now sure, tongues is not specifically mentioned here, but these are the same types of "manifestations" that are listed in 1 Cor. 12 and here they are clearly distinguished as "gifts" (charismas).

As a side note, I think that tongues is a lot like prophecy in how it can be exercised. That is, according to the proportion of your faith.

As far as 1 Cor. 7, I have never thought of that before, but I don't see the dilemma. For one thing, I'd like to point out that Paul does not say that "being married" or "being single" is a gift. You can infer that, but it is not stated.

Regardless, if someone has such a gift, I suppose it means that they have the grace/ability to live pure without being married. If they then choos to get married, that doesn't mean God took the gift away or repented of it, but perhaps that the individual who had the gift forfeited it. They still may have had that ability to remain single and pure but they chose marriage anyway.

In fact, I suppose it's possible that a married person could still have this gift. They still have the ability and grace to live pure without a wife but they have one anyway. They don't need one, but they happen to have one.

Does that work?

Also, thanks for correcting me on Romans 11:29. You're right, "calling" is singular, I just made a mistake.

 2005/7/8 15:03Profile
ravin
Member



Joined: 2004/5/6
Posts: 309
Washington st. u.S. A.

 Re:

only God can give us a prayer language, that the devil will never understand.
we go to that secret place, that's only Gods and our place. It's that one on one relationship that belongs only to God and us.
It will pass away as the word says, because we will not need it later as we will be with God and walk with him in the cool of the day as before in the garden

 2005/7/8 18:31Profile





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