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Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37099
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11


We do not want to minimize what Francis Chan is saying that to be critical and judgemental of others in the body of Christ is a sin and it causes God to withdraw as it is the proud that judge others.

Towards his naming of 4 people this is up to each person who feels where to draw the line of a heretic or rather a brother who does not have perfect doctrine or practices we prefer.

According to the Scriptures all 4 men that Francis Chan mentions in my mind are not heretics. They have practices we might not agree with or even teachings but on the core fundamentals of the faith we can agree with them.

SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2018/11/25 13:00Profile

Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3465


"We do not want to minimize what Francis Chan is saying that to be critical and judgemental of others in the body of Christ is a sin and it causes God to withdraw as it is the proud that judge others."


Also, we can get in trouble by going to extremes on any teaching, and that would be to throw all discernment out the window.

We are not to judge out of the flesh but to judge with righteous judgement.

We need the whole council of the Word of God.


 2018/11/25 14:14Profile


At least two of these men embrace the Catholic Pope, Francis, as a brother in Christ and accept Catholicism as another branch of Christianity. Do you agree with them Greg?.......bro Frank

 2018/11/25 22:25

Joined: 2006/2/22
Posts: 410


Hi All

There are many men of God who have made a few mistakes from the pulpit but grace covers it and I believe that God allows this because people start to make the preacher and idol. We are blessed when we hear the word from Godly preachers but we are blessed more when we take what they say and allow the holy spirit to reveal the same word to us personally.

The growing number of christians that do not do this is saddening as they allow any doctrine into their hearts just because this preacher said this or that preacher said that.

I agree that some christians are just religious and are unable to discern the difference and act clearly on a pharasee agenda and there needs to be caution around this but we are also are in the last days and the deception is bigger now then it has ever been. We need to encourage each other and new christians on how to study the word for them selves, how to check what people try to say into our lives.

I have the freedom to speak and test the word as this word is my Lord and Saviour and reigns in my heart. I test everything against that as I have an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ, I know the will of my Father. If somebody says something that is not the same as what I know and experience personally then i refuse it entry through the gates of my heart. The biggest issue today is the compromise of Gods word to apease the Crowds.

Always God our Father glorified above all things, in Jesus Name

karl rashleigh

 2018/11/25 22:42Profile

Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 941
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re: Francis Chan Warns Against Those Who Cause Division in the Church

A couple of important questions are raised by this thread, following on Francis Chan’s sermon.
In my opinion, it can be traced back to the question:
What is the true nature of the church?

Some more questions:
Who is the authority in the church?
How is this authority exercised? (In the absence of the first apostles)
What is division in the church? Who are those who cause division and when is it illegitimate?
What is sacred as far as the church is concerned?
Is it a group of people gathered, with a charismatic leader, purporting to be the church?
Or is it first and foremost, the scriptures and the revelation of the scriptures which is sacred?and a group of believers seeking to worship according to these scriptures and obey them?
When can we judge what is going on in the church?
Who can judge? (Discern, examine, test)
Are the spiritually mature not called and equipped to judge what goes on in God’s church?
Not outsiders but those calling themselves believers?

Will we not one day judge angels?


 2018/11/27 8:11Profile

Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1792
Hemel Hempstead


I wanted to give a full response to this post in a loving manner as the burning head of the ecumenical movement raises it ugly heads
As I am reading Francis chans book I will quote what passages he takes out of context to make his arguments as I was quite upset but as Francis Chan does not define what he means by the church in his book I cannot give a suitable answer.

What upsets me as there are lots of movements today which calls themselves the church which put themselves out of the historic Christian faith .

Jeremiah had very few saved when he was preaching during the time of the 7th century , the first church buildings are only 3rd century .

Seeing denomations support antibiblical things from homosexually such as the church of England to the urc church or anti biblical things that go not only against the bible but historic Christian thinking.

The aspect of most of modern biblcal denomations uniting with catholics and forming group such as the world church and Lausanne.

We do have a real church but we also have a anti Christ church which the anti Christ will come out of and to equate one with the other is in my mind crazy.

Christ does have a true bride but there is also a harlot in revelation .

I can think and feel what I like I can come up and dream the fact that hell does not exist or that pink elephants come from nowhere

Biblical truth should be our standard , Noah stood up in his day and so did Martin Luther .

Only God knows who his true bride is and what breaks my heart is when Christians forgot the blood that has been spilled by martyrs to give them the bible they have now and the fact to split themselves from organisations like the Catholic church or people like athenius who got exiled so we could believe in doctrines such as the deity of the lord jesus.

The church has been saved in blood born martyrs who stood up for doctrines , now we have Christians who curtail to every fad.

Christianity is dying not due to the fact that less people are going to church but to the fact that most don't know the bible they do not have the courage to read the blood soaked pages .

All the church is not the church

Dominic Shiells

 2018/12/1 10:46Profile

Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1792
Hemel Hempstead


In Francis Chan s book letters to the church he writes this

When Paul explained the mystery to the Corinthians, he added a terrifying warning. “Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple

Think back to the scene in 2 Chronicles 7. When the fire came down and God’s glory filled the temple, would you have considered taking a sledgehammer and striking the temple? Of course not! Then why are we so quick to gossip, slander leadership, and divide the Church? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person.

I want to know how he has taken this verse out of context
1 Corinthians 3
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. note

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. note

18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;

23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's

Paul refers to the temple as in the singular and not in the plural

2 Corinthians 6

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Compare)

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

In 2 Corinthians he makes it clear that when he talks about the temple of God he is referring to things like sexual immorality destroying are bodies

Francis Chan takes the verse completely out of context and uses it for his agenda.

Why is God so harsh about this? Paul explained that God’s temple is sacred, and we—collectively—are that temple. Every time you speak evil about a member of the Church, it is like taking a sledgehammer to the temple. Are you sure you want to keep doing that?

Francis Chan letters to the church

The passage is in the singular and not in the plural as you have other verses actually in Corinthians that counteract this

1 Corinthians 6
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

It is so sad

One of the saddest passages in the book is this one

I was bothered the first time I read about God killing Uzzah just because he tried to keep the ark of the covenant from falling. Uzzah touched the ark because the cart it was riding on hit a pothole (2 Sam. 6). It seemed like a trivial mistake with good intentions. Sure, God had forbidden anyone from touching the ark, but what was Uzzah supposed to do? Let the holy ark of God fall to the ground? Isn’t it a little puzzling that King Saul’s sacrifice cost him the kingdom (1 Sam. 13)? After all, he waited seven days for Samuel the priest to come and make the offering, but he didn’t show up when he said he would. To me, it seems noble that Saul offered the sacrifice because he didn’t want to go to war without first acknowledging God. Now the kingdom would be torn from him? Or what about Moses, who didn’t get to see the Promised Land because he struck the rock rather than speaking to it (Num. 20)? After

everything Moses went through, was it such a big crime to be frustrated with the people and strike the rock in anger? Then there are Ananias and Sapphira. They were both struck dead because they lied about how much money they donated to the church (Acts 5). And this is in the New Testament! Really, who hasn’t exaggerated? To top it off, Paul told the Corinthians that many of them were sick and some had even died because they celebrated Communion in an unworthy manner (1 Cor. 11:30). If Paul wasn’t exaggerating, could we be one sip away from death? To us, many situations in Scripture involve a punishment that was too severe for the crime. But why do we feel this way? We don’t understand what it means for something to be “sacred.” We live in a human-centered world among people who see themselves as the highest authority. We are quick to say things like “That isn’t fair!” because we believe we deserve certain rights as humans. Yet we give little thought to the rights God deserves as God. Even in the Church we can act as though God’s actions should revolve around us. The stories in Scripture are meant to show us that there exists something of greater value than our existence

If you understand the contexts of these passages

2 Samuel 6

6 And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. note (Compare)

7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God. note

8 And David was displeased, because the LORD had made a breach upon Uzzah: and he called the name of the place Perezuzzah to this day. note note

9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day, and said, How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?

10 So David would not remove the ark of the LORD unto him into the city of David: but David carried it aside into the house of Obededom the Gittite.

11 And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom, and all his household.

12 And it was told king David, saying, The LORD hath blessed the house of Obededom, and all that pertaineth unto him, because of the ark of God. So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obededom into the city of David with gladness.

13 And it was so, that when they that bare the ark of the LORD had gone six paces, he sacrificed oxen and fatlings.

14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.

15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet

Num 7:9 But unto the sons of Kohath he gave none: because the service of the sanctuary belonging unto them was that they should bear upon their shoulders

In numbers it details how the ark should be carried and who should carry it. God lays down how the ark the ark should be carried uzzah is only one who dies early on in 1 Samuel

1Sa 6:19 And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter

God killed 50,000 people in Beth shemesh for opening the ark.

I do not understand Francis Chan point as he clearly does not understand the passages he is quoting but to me it is half the problem.

It is half the problem if he had read the passages that we cannot do what we think it is right in our own eyes and to obey God is more important as we have a bible.

In this passage I can see how he does not understand what he is talking about.

It is always doing things are way versus doing things god's way and this is half the problem of the book

Dominic Shiells

 2018/12/1 17:57Profile

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