SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : Devotional Thoughts : Jeremiah’s question

Print Thread (PDF)

PosterThread
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 516
Texas

 Jeremiah’s question

It is fascinating to see how the Lord is willing to help His servants understand His basis for sending devastating judgments. The Lord instructed Jeremiah to run about the streets of Jerusalem and try to find a single man doing justice and seeking faith.

The Lord’s perspective of this people was that He had made multiple attempts to correct them, but they had become unwilling to receive it. In fact, the Lord insisted that the people had hardened themselves against being turned back.

Jeremiah was unsure about God’s perspective and thought “perhaps this was only the case with the poor and they were unable to turn back because they did not know the way of the Lord or God’s justice?” So, he determined to go to men of standing and speak to them because they “fully knew” (epiginisko) the way of the Lord and His justice.

This is what Jeremiah discovered in his inquiry - “BEHOLD with one accord they had broken the yoke and torn apart the covenant bonds.”
These men had intentionally multiplied ungodliness and strengthened their rejection of God and His covenant.

- [ ] Once Jeremiah understood how deliberate and willful the people’s rejection had become, the Lord asked the prophet this question: “What kind of atonement (mercy) should happen to this people, your sons abandoned Me and sworn oaths by gods not being gods?”

This is a very relevant question for men today. We wrestle with God’s wrath, perhaps because like Jeremiah, we wonder if the people really understand. Let us be fully assured that God is willing to atone for sins of ignorance (unintentional sins); however, if we sin willfully after having received the knowledge of the truth, there remains NO SACRIFICE (no atoning mercy) only a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire.
Why should God atone those who have known Him and after having known the way of righteousness, turned their back?

What would be the purpose of such mercy? Jeremiah was a man like many of us who might wrestle with God’s judgement. In His kindness, God allowed Jeremiah to BEHOLD what the Lord has observed. The people’s condition was not due to some inability, they had become hardened rebels who had abandoned God. What kind of atonement should such men receive?


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2018/11/5 6:18Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 756
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re: Jeremiah’s question


Hi Mak:

Thought provoking post brother. Yet a few things.

Jer 5:5 I will get me unto the great men, and will speak unto them; for they have known the way of the Lord, and the judgment of their God: but these have altogether broken the yoke, and burst the bonds.

Jer 5:7 How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, and sworn by them that are no gods: when I had fed them to the full, they then committed adultery, and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots' houses.

Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

In your questions Im not sure if you are looking for interpretations of Jeremiah 5 or you are speaking rhetorically and your intent is to lay the Jeremiah context upon the Hebrews 10 text..26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

The context of Jeremiah 5 answers your questions as to what should happen to them, they went into captivity under their enemies.
As to "Kind" of atonement, the old covenant only had those that were insufficient to secure obedience...but as a shadow must be looked away from toward what was the 'substance' creating the shadow.
The New covenant has only one atonement, that being Jesus Christ himself.

But you do something strange to the context of Hebrews. You overlay it with the Jeremiah text ( or imply it) But the dilemma given by the author of Hebrews is different. The question arises from the fact that old covenant sacrifices are no longer accepted and quickly being done away with, secondly the only acceptable sacrifice is Jesus Christ, he is the final and only sacrifice available to Jew and Gentile.

To sin willfully when one cannot return to old covenant sacrifice because God has superceded it and then turn away from Jesus Christ whom God has vouched as the final and only acceptable sacrifice leave those who sin with NO SACRIFICE at all.

The emphasis is not being made upon the 'wilfully' but upon the last and final sacrifice is all that is available and if it is rejected...the law which remains to condemn men for their sins brings them into the hands of God who will bring only judgment upon them. They are doomed.

So as with the Jews of old, God in his mercy sent them to Babylon to rid them of their idols and evil ways. There God brought forth a new generation to receive back their land, rebuild their temple and start again. God in his judgment makes way for mercies. The atonement was the same and the unchanging God was merciful upon the children of wicked men and women.

In short, this doesn't answers the hidden counsels of God that determine his own judgments, but it does reveal to us that a whole generation of people may be judged in order to give the next generation a new start.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/11/5 11:36Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 516
Texas

 Re:

Thanks Marvin,

Those are wonderful thoughts. My musings were general rather than specific, and what I found a fascinating parallel between Jeremiah 5 and Hebrews 10 is the continuity of God's heart - ie He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

My meditations were upon the "purpose" for atoning mercy. God must atone for our sins to enable us to interact with Him and to approach Him. Atoning mercy must not be separated from His desire to restore the sinner to Himself. When it has become abundantly clear that all attempts to turn His people back to Himself have been met with hardened resolve not to return - God has no such atonement. That is what I saw in Jeremiah chapter 5.

Earlier, during the ministry of Isaiah, the offer to the people was "only acknowledge your sin that you were ungodly unto the Lord. Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow..." But years have passed, Mannaseh undid much of Hezekiah's reforms and even though Josiah has begun a movement toward restoration, the word of the Lord to Jeremiah is filled with descriptions of a rebellious, hardened, wayward, adulterous generation, just like their forefathers.


Since every attempt to turn them back ended in the same result, God's wrath was provoked. Atonement and mercy are for people willing to be restored. The sacrifice that forgives and cleanses is for people who admit their guilt, confess their sins and turn from their evil ways. God never envisioned an atonement for those who wanted nothing to do with Him.


Here is where I saw a parallel in Hebrews 10. The description the writer in Hebrews gives is of anyone who rejects the relationship itself. There never was a sacrifice for someone who would not be turned toward God. Atonement whether in Christ, or in the days of the shadow of the atonement for sins of ignorance, was always to restore the relationship with God.

That was the AHA moment for me. Jeremiah was wrestling with the God's decision to pour out His wrath. The Lord graciously made it clear to Jeremiah that there was no atonement for a people who had proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that they did not want God.


mak


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2018/11/5 18:18Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 756
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Mak: I don't know of any sacrifice that atones for apostasy. Backsliding...covered, deceived...covered, led astray...covered, sinful and evil hearted...covered. But apostasy where one effectively renounces his faith is a sin unto death...to return would require the Son of God to be 'crucified afresh' which will not happen.

The controversial arguments around OSAS or loss of salvation do not receive explicit explanation when reading these texts. But what we do see explicitly is certain doom, certain damnation, certain judgment and the punishment of the 'second death' in the lake of fire.
You come away knowing that such a one who has renounced his faith has 'no more sacrifice' only the determined judgment of God who has declared he will destroy his adversaries.

No matter which side you fall on the warning is the same and the cure is the same, namely a full consecration to Jesus Christ delivers us from the judgment of God.

There are some things written in your last post if taken at face value contradict what you have stated in earlier posts. But I think they arise merely because of your brevity in the post, not because there is actual contradiction.

I too love to study and meditate upon the blessed atonement and God's great grace given to us.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/11/6 14:19Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 516
Texas

 Re:

Thank you dear brother for your correspondence and shared observations.
I am certain we would agree that an ounce of prevention is with a pound of cure.

Whether a person can lose his salvation has been long debated. I believe time would be much better spent discussing the dangers of “neglecting so great a salvation.”

This concern has long influenced my focus upon the believers responsibility in abiding in Christ and diligently adding to their faith. Peter wrote that if virtue, knowledge, self-control, godliness, brotherly kindness and love were abounding in us - we would be preserved from falling.

I have found this true in my own walk. When I am dwelling in the love of Christ and feasting upon the simplicity of devotion to Him, I am little distracted from the vainities of thiis present age. When my heart is aflame with desire to know Jesus, the things I once thought gain, I count as loss and consider them rubbish.

Fallling away begins with “neglecting” the simplicity of devotion. Jesus is my salvation. What kind of salvation do I have when I have lost touch with Him? Israel’s two evils were 1. Abandoning the spring of the water of life and 2. Digging man made cisterns that couldn’t hold water.

Systematic theology can easily become a broken man made cistern. Once saved always saved is a theological opinion. Jesus is eternal life. He who HAS THE SON HAS LIFE. What does someone who has the correct doctrine have?

Mak


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2018/11/6 19:53Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 756
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Mak: "I am certain we would agree that an ounce of prevention is with a pound of cure."

I very much agree, the reason for sound doctrine is, that its proclamation is that 'pound of cure'. Discipleship is preventative of sin as well as victory over sin.

You asked, " What kind of salvation do I have when I have lost touch with Him?"

I believe and I hope accurately, that the kind of salvation we have is a 'worked out' salvation. It's not a worked-for salvation or a work-free salvation.
When we are born of God, God in us works, as Major Ian Thomas said so eloquently "God working in us and through us is the work of God" (loose quote)

Our Devotion and our good works originate from God's own working in us, because of the weakness of our own faith and the habits of sinful flesh we are always a mixture of God working and sinful man working, the sanctification of the Spirit reveals to us we are a mixture constantly being treated by God for the removal of human selfishness in all its forms.

Honesty and integrity requires us to admit "Jesus must have more of me" because my life demonstrates he has not all of me.
But faith and hope requires us to declare "Jesus is my Lord and I am submitted and in love with this wonderful God"

Jeremiah 2 was such a wonderful revelation to me when I read it years ago and even reading it now my heart yearns for no spring but what God gives by his Spirit and my heart despises any attempt at digging wells in order to 'draw my own water'.
This text is foundational to understanding the beginnings of backsliding, heresies, rebellions and apostasy.

As to systematic theology...you know I am reformed and you know the reformed sleep between Calvin's institutes and Bavinck's systematic theology. When we roll over we says 'sorry' to Hodge and when we pull the covers we freeze Luther.
But in the Morning the person I most want to see is Jesus, the person I really need to 'hear' is Jesus and the person I am to follow is the Holy Spirit. I cannot understand anything unless the Spirit of God enlightens me and I cannot esteem any man more worthy of obedience than Jesus.

As much as I love my theologians they are all just teachers, fallible men, grace-needing men like myself who God has sent to offer 'prevention'...because they are not the cure and their books are not the cure.
These dear brothers are often mistaken as monoliths, pillars upon which to cover oneself, foundations upon which to build. But, for all their wonderful wisdom and insights, they all fall drastically short of what I need, they all fail again and again in some respect ( like myself) therefore using them as a cistern instead of Christ himself can poison me.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/11/7 11:49Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 516
Texas

 Re:

Very well put Marvin.

I too have a deep appreciation for men who devoted their lives to rightly dividing the word of truth. I feel especially indebted to those whose work provides us with a greater precision into the meaning of the original language.

I realize we can esteem, honor and benefit from the devotion and scholarship of men who have gone before us. I see their work like “spiritual vitamins” (truths condensed through a devout process). Vitamins can not replace our own responsibility to eat well, but they are a wonderful supplement of concentrated nutrients.

In my limited experience, I have encountered a curious difficulty with certain sincere brothers when a discussion involves the believers personal response to God’s divine influence. I do not see that Paul, Peter, John, James, Jude, or the other gospel writers, ever hesitated to speak to the role the believer has in co-operating with the God’s gracious initiative.

His divine promises and provisions provide the believer with both the potential and accountability to fully partake of the gracious opportunity given. Diligence, perseverance, alertness, soberness are all intrinsically bound up within the believer's God given liberated will. The freedom we have received underscores our accountability. Spiritual progress is not a God generated automatic process that overrides our will. Our response to God’s initiative has a direct impact upon the degree of progress we experience. Ie - “ though you ought to be teachers by now, you have come to need milk.” God is not responsible for lack of initiative or sluggishness on our part. Certainly, apart from Him we can do NOTHING!!! However, even when He has provided everything necessary for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him; nevertheless, it is through our diligent cooperation to add to our faith what He has freely given us in Christ that prevents us from becoming ineffective, near-sighted and blind. Grace does not prevent us from stunted growth.

I am somewhat opening my heart to you by sharing these thoughts. For whatever reason, focusing upon the believer's responsibility has proven controversial. I do not see that it takes away from the glory of all God has done for us in Christ. I do not see His part and our part as a conflict, rather I see it as a divine synergy. I honestly do not understand why some react to this way when a passage clearly grammatically places the responsibility for the potential outcome on the believer’s response to grace. Let me say that the opportunities I have had to discuss this aspect of God’s part and our part have nearly always served to make me far more aware to strive to explicitly declare God’s initiative is foremost and always first. I hope that my participation in wholesome dialogue will serve to help others embrace the many grammatical expressions throughout the New Testament where the writer unmistakably intended to place the focus upon the believer, so as to emphasize our responsibility.

I have always appreciated your thoroughness and love for the scriptures evident in your posts. I feel that my correspondence with you have sharpened and challenged my own need to better understand and more precisely communicate the dynamics of God’s Grace.

Mak


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2018/11/7 14:20Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 756
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

Hi Mak:

You said..."His divine promises and provisions provide the believer with both the potential and accountability to fully partake of the gracious opportunity given. Diligence, perseverance, alertness, soberness are all intrinsically bound up within the believer's God given liberated will. The freedom we have received underscores our accountability. Spiritual progress is not a God generated automatic process that overrides our will. Our response to God’s initiative has a direct impact upon the degree of progress we experience. Ie - “ though you ought to be teachers by now, you have come to need milk.” God is not responsible for lack of initiative or sluggishness on our part. Certainly, apart from Him we can do NOTHING!!! However, even when He has provided everything necessary for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him; nevertheless, it is through our diligent cooperation to add to our faith what He has freely given us in Christ that prevents us from becoming ineffective, near-sighted and blind. Grace does not prevent us from stunted growth."

This is a wonderful condensation of Biblical truth, If one were to put Tozer, Spurgeon, Edwards, Murray, Sparks, or a dozen other pillars of the faith as the author of that paragraph no one would have questioned it, in fact they would have re-quoted it for the intrinsic value of spiritual truth contained in it.
Mak, you are well able to dispense your own vitamins too.

But aside from eloquence brother you also clear away smoke and fog that can accompany the subject. Praise God for his voice within your voice.

You said..."I am somewhat opening my heart to you by sharing these thoughts. For whatever reason, focusing upon the believer's responsibility has proven controversial. I do not see that it takes away from the glory of all God has done for us in Christ. I do not see His part and our part as a conflict, rather I see it as a divine synergy."

I am in full agreement, God and the believer have a spirit-empowered synergy where sanctification and obedience emerge from 'faith working by love'. Faith and Love are of the Spirit but that appearance is due to human submission/interaction/surrender/trust/ where human will and human action are no longer alone nor motivated from self.

The whole idea of man living as Christ is Christ living out his life again through the will and actions of human beings.

To me there is no conflict in grace and human action in the believer.

The unbeliever is another situation...and I would not call it a synergism but a monergism, where God must undertake to do what the sinner cannot...so that the sinner might have life and then begin to do what God had created him to do...good works.

I do not confuse the two (hopefully)


_________________
Marvin

 2018/11/8 16:05Profile





©2002-2018 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy