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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Why Do you call me Lord...

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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1920
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi Marvin, you wrote:

Quote:
It has been a constant observation of mine over the years that when I run into libertarian free-will promoters, I run into Pelagian ideas regarding free-will and mans ability to repent and believe based merely upon received data (reading or hearing some sermon). The Holy Spirit just falls in line and answers the will of man when man decides what's best.



Well you can count on that view not being part of what I am trying to communicate here, as I fully affirm the Holy Spirit’s role in convicting and drawing sinners. However, I will say that in my run-ins with those from your camp through the years, it does seem that the power of God’s living Word has often been downplayed. I hope that’s not the case with you. I affirm that both the Word of God and the Holy Spirit must work in harmony to draw sinners to repentance and faith in Christ.

Again, the difference between us is that I believe man can choose to resist the Holy Spirit’s inner work of conviction and drawing (see Acts 7:51), whereas you believe that that work of the Spirit cannot be resisted; you’ve equated the Spirit’s work of conviction and drawing with conviction and drawing unto salvation necessarily, which I don’t see taught in Scripture.


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Oracio Sandoval

 2018/11/16 11:17Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 811
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Nigel: For those very texts I have doubts about my 'non-born again position', but what I cannot seem to find is the 'experience' or the drastic change from pagan to believer or from unrepentant to repentant that explicitly declares a 'born again' occurrence has happened. Under the old covenant, the experience was labeled a 'return to the Law' and a 'keeping of God's commands'. Is this synonymous with Born again? I don't know for certain.

I concede I may be dead wrong on this so I'll happily entertain dissenting opinions with scripture proofs.

Now, philosophically it makes sense the Believer in the Old Covenant would be born of God because he is God's elect and the Spirit of God would dwell inside of him/her.
But there are other texts that seem to negate the 'born again' condition of a old covenant believer because the new testament treats even the believing Jews as 'non-born-agains' until they have believed upon Jesus.

thanks for the check on that.


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Marvin

 2018/11/16 11:43Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1920
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi Marvin, you wrote:

Quote:
The Elect of God are so by God's willing to love them according to his own will and purpose. It is not by reason of their claiming or being or doing anything different than other folks.


With all due respect, I don’t see how your view of God’s love can rightly be called true love in any sense of the word. For there to be true love there must be a reciprocal choice involved. If I truly love my wife, I will allow her to choose to love me back without me forcing her or making her do so.

Let’s say I knew my wife didn’t love me and that she wanted to leave me for another man. And let’s say I knew of some drug or potion that could make her love me. And let’s say I slipped that item in her drink, causing her to choose to love me. How would that be true love? Neither on my part or her part would it be true love. Yet this is essentially how those from your camp define and view God’s love for us and our love for Him.

Again, without a reciprocal choice, love is rendered meaningless. As I see taught in Scripture, God designed for us to respond willingly, not by force, to His love for us, which makes our relationship with Him all the more meaningful. God first loves us and offers us salvation and we in turn respond back to His amazing love and offer. That’s true love my friend.

Quote:
Lastly there has been a misunderstanding, I do not relegate those who hold to free-will as 'unsaved' or some other judgment. We are not save by reason of adopting Calvin or Armin, we are saved by God's great mercy and our knowledge is to be that of God, not some teacher of God.


That’s good to hear, but I hope that that also applies to those of us who don’t fall in either Calvinistic or Arminian camps.

Quote:
Oracio you said...

I have not stated that the witness of nature is a substitute for the gospel. Maybe you misunderstood what I meant. When I say that the witnesses of nature and conscience (the Holy Spirit convicting by the conscience) are enough to “draw” sinners to God, I mean that it’s enough to “draw them closer” to God than if they ignored those witnesses. If sinners respond positively to those lesser lights/witnesses, God will be faithful to provide more light, namely the light of the gospel of Christ. I believe Acts 17:26-27 (which you have not attempted to interpret after I brought it up and interpreted it) as will as other passages are explicit in this regard.

I think this is a fair and biblical way of expressing God's usage of nature. If I ignored the passage it was not to ignore the importance of your stating it...I probably just magoo'd and drove past it.


Good to hear we agree on that point.


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Oracio Sandoval

 2018/11/16 11:49Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 811
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Oracio: Lots of good responses with really good clarifications.

1. Glad to hear you don't embrace libertarian free-will.
2. Glad we agree on some things.
3. Glad you take a stand on what you believe, it's much tougher trying to respond to someone who's convictions are equal to nailing jello to the wall.

A few things.

1. When you speak of God's determination in the salvation of men as 'arbitrary', that is strictly an uninformed opinion, there is nothing I can do with that except file it under "what Oracio thinks". God's decisions have never been characterized in scripture as 'arbitrary', but arminians in their arguments against Calvinism make this characterization of God's choosing, it does nothing to help their argument because there is no biblical basis for it.
2. You may not 'see' how the love of God can be true for those who respond by reason of God's election, but untold million have seen. Their testimony as mine is God's working in me while I was an enemy. My love for him follows as Jesus stated
john 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Then he says this...
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

As read the biblical account it was Jesus that initiated the call to his disciples. It was Jesus who chose them, It was Jesus who loved them.

Their reciprocation was only after the work of God in their hearts...and even then it was not sufficient until they were filled with the Holy Ghost.

Jesus died for us while we were enemies not friends, He chose us while we were estranged and alienated in our hearts and minds, so no, your hallmark movie boy-girl analogy really doesn't fit what transpired to bring about the love of God in our hearts.

Now if you would have said "Well, his beloved girlfriend killed him and hated him without a cause, then had him crucified and it was not until God raised the man back to life so he could send his Spirit forth to open his girlfriends eyes to see what kind of man he was and what kind of love he had for her while she was yet plotting his death". That's not hallmark and that's not reciprocation as you like to put it, but that's what transpired between God and man.

This is not about two beings who get together by way of wedding proposal, we are made new creations, we are given a new heart, we are given his Spirit and because of that, we reciprocate the love of God. Yet, we reciprocate not until that salvation has been worked in the heart of men.

There is another silly characterization of God's election that declares God to be forcing, coercion, dragging the dog etc. Well, all I can say is ask the multitude of reformed and they will tell you, they weren't dragged, coerced or forced into anything...and that their decision to believe was not because of something intrinsic to their mind or will that put them into a place to believe, it was God' working in them.
You may ask the multitude of Arminians the same and their answers will be the same, they came by way of God's working in their hearts. So, when depicting the doctrine of election as 'coercion' there really isn't any examples.
But, there is a hypothetical that seems to be taken as good as gold and which has no validity to anyone in their actual Christian testimony.


Lastly as to semi-pelagianism, the arminians have been fine with it for centuries, no theologians call the reformed semi-Gnostics...they know better than that.
Semi-pelagianism is simply a theological descriptor, it's not meant as a slur. Semi-Gnosticism would be, since it would be a modification on Gnosticism which reformed theology is not and never has been.


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Marvin

 2018/11/16 14:04Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1920
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi Marvin, I appreciate the encouragement and clarification on your part as well. I hope that our correspondence here may be beneficial to those reading it who may be struggling with these issues; I hope they may be helped in making informed, biblical choices on what theological positions to take or agree with.


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Oracio Sandoval

 2018/11/16 16:41Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 811
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

Thanks Oracio for the postings, I appreciate discussion and I even more appreciate it from knowledgeable brother/sisters like yourself.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/11/19 13:35Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1920
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Thanks again Marvin. I have close friends/brothers in Christ whom are Calvinistic with whom I do street evangelism, so there are no hard feelings at all on my part; but imo there's nothing wrong with a little "friendly, fiery" discussion from time to time on "debatable" topics like this.


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Oracio Sandoval

 2018/11/19 23:18Profile
Martyr
Member



Joined: 2012/6/10
Posts: 207
United States

 Re:

Marvin...you say "here is another silly characterization of God's election that declares God to be forcing, coercion, dragging the dog etc. Well, all I can say is ask the multitude of reformed and they will tell you, they weren't dragged, coerced or forced into anything...and that their decision to believe was not because of something intrinsic to their mind or will that put them into a place to believe, it was God' working in them.
You may ask the multitude of Arminians the same and their answers will be the same, they came by way of God's working in their hearts. So, when depicting the doctrine of election as 'coercion' there really isn't any examples.
But, there is a hypothetical that seems to be taken as good as gold and which has no validity to anyone in their actual Christian testimony."

I agree. Consider this.

In Him was life, and the life was the light of men

AND

"That was the true Light which gives light to EVERY man coming into the world."

Notice that light=life

All men have this potential, youre just one of the ones who chose to believe. Why do we need to complicate things past that? Why make the distinction when the entire point of the new covenant is salvation to all men through the Spirit and not of the flesh?

Is it hard for you to imagine that a hardened murderer has the same light in him that you do but he has been so oppressed and made so many rash decisions in ignorance and hardened his heart out of fear of the pain in there that he has squashed that light? Laud yourself, I will pity such a man and seek to restore what God planted in that man (for once without the law he was without sin, like a child we must enter the kingdom) and destroy what the devil has planted and what the man himself has hardened because HE DIDNT KNOW ANY BETTER.

This is why Jesus wept!

But yeah keep debating guys, satan trembles.


_________________
Tyler

 2018/11/20 0:39Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1920
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi Tyler, you wrote:

Quote:
But yeah keep debating guys, satan trembles.


Brother, there have been times when I've struggled internally with certain biblical, theological issues. During those times I've watched, listened to or read certain discussions or debates, and I believe the Lord has used them to help shed more light on the issue or to help steer me in the right direction. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has experienced that kind of blessing via a discussion or debate.

In one sense you're right though even though you meant it sarcastically. Satan does tremble when God's people are set free from certain unhealthy beliefs which hinder their walks with Christ in one form or another.

I do believe that certain beliefs/views regarding God's sovereignty (and there are different shades of it, i.e. hyper, high, low or so-called moderate) do hinder believers' walks in one form or another; just like certain views of man's innate abilities also hinder and cause one to think too highly of one's self.


_________________
Oracio Sandoval

 2018/11/20 10:31Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 811
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Tyler:

There are all kinds of believers, some like myself do not consider it the devil's-humor section when brothers debate/argue/discuss points of scripture that are not understood the same.

I agree that a debate can be ineffectual/inert when the debaters live in an academic world alone. I say, take what you believe for a spin, drive it around a little, see if perseverance is true to help you walk in faith for long duration. Take the doctrine of total depravity for a spin, see if there are people who are not sinners by nature, and sinners by choice. The point is, a lived out faith is not a theological abstraction, a mere propositional statement.
For some maybe it's all about the 'win', with me, I could care less, I do care about trying to articulate what I believe...because I see God in it in my own life.

I'm not sure what prompts you to think I negate 'hardened sinnners' as having less opportunity to believe over against 'moral sinners who attend church'. I've never implied such a thing in any of my postings since I've been here.
Truth be told, my longest preaching stints have been in Union Gospel mission, Men's rehab centers, womens rehab centers, the lowest economically among the Filipinos, Mexican and Panamanian peoples. If I put a resume together, it would be sorely lacking in preaching to 'good folks'.

Maybe there is some horrid Calvinist that did what you say, but that guy is not me.

The distinction is made because the scripture makes the distinction. I didn't invent 'Elect" anymoreso than I did 'damned'.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/11/20 11:21Profile





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