| Poster | Thread | Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1165
Snoqualmie, WA
| | Re: | |
Oracio you said...
I have not stated that the witness of nature is a substitute for the gospel. Maybe you misunderstood what I meant. When I say that the witnesses of nature and conscience (the Holy Spirit convicting by the conscience) are enough to “draw” sinners to God, I mean that it’s enough to “draw them closer” to God than if they ignored those witnesses. If sinners respond positively to those lesser lights/witnesses, God will be faithful to provide more light, namely the light of the gospel of Christ. I believe Acts 17:26-27 (which you have not attempted to interpret after I brought it up and interpreted it) as will as other passages are explicit in this regard.
I think this is a fair and biblical way of expressing God's usage of nature. If I ignored the passage it was not to ignore the importance of your stating it...I probably just magoo'd and drove past it.
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Marvin
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|  2018/11/15 16:40 | Profile | TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA
| | Re: | | Marvin I am not saying I have it all figured out because there is some mystery and limitation as to how much we can know about how God operates. But may I submit that if you believe God created beings in order to torture some of them mercilessly in an eternal hell that he made for that very purpose, then you do not have it all figured out either.
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Todd
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| | 2018/11/15 16:45 | Profile | Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | Psalm 14:3 (KJVSL) They are all gone aside <çûwr>, they are all together <yachad> become filthy <ʼâlach>: there is none that doeth <ʻâsâh> good <ṭôwb>, no, not one <ʼechâd>.
Psalm 53:3 (KJVSL) Every one of them is gone back <çûwg>: they are altogether <yachad> become filthy <ʼâlach>; there is none that doeth <ʻâsâh> good <ṭôwb>, no, not one <ʼechâd>.
Romans 3:10 (KJVSL) As <kathṓs> it is written <gráphō>, <hóti> There is <estí> none <ou> righteous <díkaios>, no, not <oudé> one <heîs>:
Romans 3:12 (KJVSL) They are <ekklínō> all <pâs> gone out of the way <ekklínō>, they are <achreióō> together <háma> become unprofitable <achreióō>; there is <estí> none <ou> that doeth <poiéō> good <chrēstótēs>, no, not <ou> one <estí> <héōs> <heîs>.
1 Corinthians 6:5 (KJVSL) I speak <légō> to your <hymîn> shame <prós> <entropḗ>. Is it so <hoútō>, that there <estí> is not <ou> a wise man <sophós> among <en> you <hymîn>? no, not <oudé> one <heîs> that <hós> shall be able <dýnamai> to judge <diakrínō> between <aná> <mésos> his <autós> brethren <adelphós>?
My will is free and it will always be against God. I am certainly one of the "no not one".
There is only one will that makes my righteousness bent toward God that is God who has made Jesus Christ my will to believe by faith that He is made unto me righteousness and redemption. 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 (KJV) But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Praise God His will has overshadowed my will, that I might believe.
In Christ: Phillip
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Phillip
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| | 2018/11/15 22:51 | Profile | Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA
| | Re: | | Hi Marvin, you wrote:
Quote:
Lastly, Old testament exhortations to obedience need to be carefully considered.
The old covenant believer was not 'born again' as we are and their exhortation was on the level of moral law. We find endless examples of utter failure when the 'human will' and moral law held hands.
Those OT passages which I shared (Deut. 30:19-20 and Josh. 24:15) are not just “exhortations to obedience” but are salvific in principle. Those exhortations have to do with a choice between serving God and serving sin as a way of life, a choice between genuine repentance toward God and rebellion against Him. Some chose to live a life of humility before God while others chose to worship false gods to their own peril. That same basic choice is carried over into New Testament teaching. Again, it’s a choice between repentance and rebellion as a way of life. OT saints were saved the same way we are today, via repentance and faith in the true God, and it was a choice they made just like we do today, even though they did not have the Spirit in as full a measure as we do now.
Also, you never replied regarding Matthew 23:37 where we see Jesus lamenting over the fact that He often wanted to save those who had perished in their sins through their own willful rebellion against Him.
Quote:
What was the cause of the failure? Human will/effort/capability to keep God's law was shown as an utter and complete failure what is the solution? It is God in man and God always intended, God helping man, God empowering man, God motivating and inspiring the man that made all the difference. This very thing you acknowledge when you admit the Spirit of God must convict of sin righteousness and judgment in order for someone to believe. In short God must act before man can or will act.
Again, I agree that God must take the first step toward man. And He has done that via His “natural revelation,” via the Holy Spirit convicting man of his sin, via the giving of His Word, and via the sending of His Son to be the Savior of the world (not just of some sinners for no apparent reason). I agree that God must help, empower, motivate and inspire man.
The difference between us is that I believe man can either choose to receive all that help which God offers, or he can choose to reject it to his own peril. You believe God must force Himself upon sinners for them to respond positively to His offer of help lest man be given too much glory or credit for his salvation. But just because one chooses to receive help or salvation from God it doesn’t mean one helps or saves himself, which is something that those from your camp refuse to acknowledge.
Quote:
Oracio, the recipe you give can be used to create any cult out there, all of them will be hell-bound and live lives independent and estranged from God.
That’s a pretty strong statement. Again, by that line of reasoning Christianity prior to Augustine provided that kind of recipe, which doesn’t make sense imo.
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Oracio
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| | 2018/11/15 22:55 | Profile | drifter
Member
Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 1025
Campbell River, B.C.
| | Re: | | Old Testament believers were born again.
Remember when Jesus talked with Nicodemus about being born again? Nicodemus couldn't understand what Jesus was talking about, and Jesus asked him "Art thou a master in Israel, and knowest thou not these things?" Nicodemus knew what the Torah and the prophets had written, but evidently missed the entire point; knowing God personally IS being born again.
John the Baptist was under the Old Covenant but he was filled with the Holy Spirit.
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Nigel Holland
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| | 2018/11/15 23:37 | Profile | Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA
| | Re: | | Hi Marvin, you wrote: Quote:
Oracio: When you used the term 'arbitrary', you are characterizing God, not the doctrine and when you call God into question, you are the clay saying to the potter why have you made me this way?
By “seemingly arbitrarily” I mean “for no apparent or known reason.” According to your view (unless you hold to double predestination which is worse imo), we see all of humanity lost and doomed to hell without the ability to make any kind of choice to receive God’s offer of salvation due to their total depravity/total inability; and we see God picking out a certain percentage of sinners for salvation for no apparent reason and leaving the rest (the majority) in their lost condition without hope whatsoever. Don’t you see how that could seem like an arbitrary and unloving choice? Again, I don’t see God “passing by” any sinner like that. I see Him both willing and able to save to the uttermost any and all who will respond willingly to His offer of salvation. This is the heart of God which I see explicitly throughout the Scriptures:
“Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’”-Ezekiel 33:11
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Oracio
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| | 2018/11/15 23:38 | Profile | Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA
| | Re: | | Hi Nigel, you wrote Quote:
Old Testament believers were born again.
Remember when Jesus talked with Nicodemus about being born again? Nicodemus couldn't understand what Jesus was talking about, and Jesus asked him "Art thou a master in Israel, and knowest thou not these things?" Nicodemus knew what the Torah and the prophets had written, but evidently missed the entire point; knowing God personally IS being born again.
John the Baptist was under the Old Covenant but he was filled with the Holy Spirit.
I think that there is a good case to be made for that brother. However, there are certain passages which do seem teach that OT saints had not received the Spirit as we do now prior to Pentecost. This is one such passage:
“37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”-John 7:37-39
I think it's a matter of measure. I believe OT saints did have the Spirit but not as much as we do now. I think that's probably why there was much more failure in OT times in terms overcoming temptation and sin.
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Oracio
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| | 2018/11/15 23:48 | Profile | Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA
| | Re: | | Hi Marvin, you wrote: Quote:
You and I are not commissioned to 'know who is written in the lambs book of life', nor are we commissioned to preach the gospel predicated upon what we think should be offered to sinners.
Are you commissioned by God or is God commissioned by you?
You said" If that is indeed case, it’s the worst news they could ever hear, because it only serves to add to their guilt and condemnation after hearing it, being that they cannot choose to receive it but only to reject it."
As long as you are putting God on trial here, you might also consider the supposed free will of these sinners have again and again rejected it and added guilt to their sinful lives and gone to hell too.
Do you feel better if they go to hell because they rejected God? Does that change the value or the character of the good news we are to preach?
Jesus said Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
What shall we do? Shall we tell God, "unless you offer salvation to everyone I require your gospel is not fit to be preached?"
Jesus said "few there be that find it", if that few consists of rejecters-by-their-will or it consists of the non-elect...both classed fall into the same category "they didn't want God to begin with", they didn't seek God, they did what their sinful hearts wanted.
Are you that sure God is so bad and you are so good?
Think again, in either case, the rejecter class or the non-elect class are in hell and God knew it before they were born, he knew it before he gave them a living soul. God gave life to a person who he knew he would judge and cast into the lake of fire.
How does this help your case?
When we are told to be good to the 'samaritan' is that goodness predicated upon his 'equal opportunity to be saved?" If it is, how to we know that? By claiming that God has no elect, he has no choice and the gospel be implicated if he does have a choice and an elect.
God can in fact know that certain choices will be made without Himself determining those choices beforehand. If I understand you correctly, you’re asking me, “How does it help your case that God would choose to create individuals whom He knew would reject Him and would end up in hell?” Well, that’s a tough question I’ll admit. But I believe your view is tougher to defend both biblically and philosophically in terms of your view of God’s character and intentions.
On your view, God creates certain individuals (reprobates) who are totally unable to respond positively to His offer of salvation and who will never respond positively to it because they were never chosen for salvation for no apparent reason. Imo that view makes those who reject Christ seem more like victims of unfortunate circumstances who are to be pitied. On the other hand, if sinners do indeed have a choice in the matter, in their willful trampling of the Son of God they are truly evil in every sense of the word; they could have chosen otherwise but willfully refused to repent when given the opportunity.
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Oracio
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| | 2018/11/16 2:21 | Profile | Elibeth
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Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1148
| | Re: Why Do you call me Lord... | | Re: Why do you call me Lord ?
* now considering the Strongs definition, and the position He holds since He is our ***Lord***
Strong's Definitions: κύριος kýrios, koo'-ree-os; from κῦρος kŷros (supremacy); SUPREME IN AUTHORITY, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):—God, Lord, master, Sir.
Lk6:42-48,
“But why do you call Me ***’Lord, Lord,’***and not do the things which I say? Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.
Note:we have a part or rather a choice in this.
“Whosoever comes to Me, and hears my sayings, and does them,...”
( ^^*faith***cometh by hearing, and hearing by The Word of God)
Mt.7:21-24,
“¶ Not every one that saith unto me, ***Lord, Lord,****shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
22 “Many will say to me in that day, ***Lord, Lord,*** have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?”
23 “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
24 “¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:”
It would seem that I have a choice as to what kind of house to build.
This house that I allow The Lord to build in me to house The Holy Spirit.
Built upon this **Rock,..the foundation.,... then He guides in the building of the house....led by His Spirit.
*The Rock: The Word of God, that was in Christ Jesus
(That is my plumb line) when I have Truth, all His Words flow together.
....I must have eyes to see, ears to hear
Concerning the calling Him, ^^^Lord,Lord,*** on judgement day,and His response be to me....
*Deception:,..
Will I be deceived on that day, and reap the above, or will He open His arms wide unto me and say, to come in you good and faithful
servant ?
It is not the ** will ** of The Father that any perish ,.. He would have us all come to the knowledge of the truth,...
to repent,.... to turn around,.. a choice for me to make,... and it comes from the “power to become” that He gives to me.
—————-♥️
elizabeth
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| | 2018/11/16 3:29 | Profile | Oracio
Member
Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA
| | Re: | | Hi Marvin, you wrote: Quote:
Hi Oracio: Libertarian free will is free-will gone malignant. It's not the same as semi-pelagian free-will teaching common among the Pentacostals, Charismatics, Assemblies of God, and pretty much everyone else not reformed.
When you say you believe in Libertarian free-will I must assign the definition belonging to it.
A couple things here. Firstly, by libertarian free will we simply mean the ability to choose whether to receive or reject the gospel; the ability to make such a choice inherently without there needing to be any kind of change in the will’s constitution. In other words, we do not believe that man lost this ability to choose this way through the fall of Adam. Both Calvinists and Arminians believe the will must be “freed up” after one is born, for one to be able to choose to repent and believe the gospel. “Baptist Traditionalism” on the other hand (which I agree with in this regard) disagrees with both Cal and Arm in this regard. Many Southern Baptist churches (I’m not part of one btw) believe and teach this view of free will, again, a view which doesn’t line up with either Calvinism or Arminianism.
Secondly, I think you may want to rethink calling Arminianism “semi-pelagianism” if you don’t want them to call your view “semi-gnosticism.” I think many find it offensive.
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Oracio
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| | 2018/11/16 10:56 | Profile |
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