Reigate, Surrey, UK
| Revival........... HA!!|
I hate that word 'Revival' ....... Revive what exactly.
I know what it means but the past revivals have done nothing, what are you trying to revive???
He who looks back at the plough is not fit to serve in the kingdom of God.. SO WHY do the people of God look to past events for strategies for the future?
When revivals do happen they generally fizzle out into the pages of history like an expensive box of fireworks that had its moment directly after they were lit.
No one leaves their job in a revival, no one sells their house and puts the money into the revival and no one is slaughtered in a revival. We live in comfortable lands for most of us. We watch X Factor while our brothers and sisters have their heads cut off and we watch X Factor before going to church on Sunday mornings....
Before anything is raised from the dead it has to be dead first..... the church needs killing so that God can get a word in for a change.
Here comes Sunday morning, you will all be sitting in chairs facing the front for yet another convicting message. Maybe we should start with an honest prayer like, ''Dear God, oh holy one of all the earth, you had better get your skates on because we are all going home at 1-O-clock. You have two hours so hurry up''
The church these days need encouragement to stand up with whats coming, not encouragement to carry on as they have been...
The worst possible scenario right now is for the people of God to be comforted in the system it floats around in.
| 2018/11/3 7:18||Profile|
| Re: Revival........... HA!!|
My heart is as David's as he cries out to the Lord in Psalm 119;
25 My soul cleaves to the dust; Revive me according to Thy word.
37 Turn away my eyes from looking at vanity, And revive me in Thy ways.
40 Behold, I long for Thy precepts; Revive me through Thy righteousness.
50 This is my comfort in my affliction, That Thy word has revived me.
88 Revive me according to Thy lovingkindness, So that I may keep the testimony of Thy mouth.
93 I will never forget Thy precepts, For by them Thou hast revived me.
107 I am exceedingly afflicted; Revive me, O LORD, according to Thy word.
149 Hear my voice according to Thy lovingkindness; Revive me, O LORD, according to Thine ordinances.
154 Plead my cause and redeem me; Revive me according to Thy word.
156 Great are Thy mercies, O LORD; Revive me according to Thine ordinances.
159 Consider how I love Thy precepts; Revive me, O LORD, according to Thy lovingkindness.
| 2018/11/3 7:45||Profile|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
| Re: Revival........... HA!!|
I wanted to just give a quick response to you about your observation and comments on revival. Here is a statement on the about us page of the site you might have not read: http://www.sermonindex.net/about.php
SermonIndex is not just a website but really has become a movement of believers seeking the 'old paths' (Jeremiah 6:16). This journey of faith weaves through the current state of evangelical Christianity and the passionate preaching of many godly ministers in our day. Many are seeking authenticity, reality and sincerity in the Christian faith. In a day when popular preachers are telling lies (Jeremiah 5:30-31), there is a great renewed desire to find the real Jesus in the midst of the counterfeit. SermonIndex has been able to archive many of the best preaching messages given in the last 50 years in audio mp3 form, as well as digging into the history of the Church and archiving many of the encouraging text messages given.
No matter what Christian background, we are able to find the common ground of being true disciples of Jesus Christ by picking up the cross and following Him (Luke 9:23). SermonIndex did not begin with any ambitions of ministry succcess but rather the Holy Spirit leading to its inception (Zechariah 4:6). Revival speaks to us of the very worship of God and His presence, meeting with and experiencing Jesus Christ. We see a picture of this genuine presence of God in, Isaiah 6, where God is seen 'high and exalted.' Another picture of this we see in Revelation 5 where there is 'a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain.' Revival is about experiencing and knowing this very Lamb of God, Jesus Christ.
As it seems in our day the insincere and irreverent prevails in Christendom we pray and trust that you will find something of reality on SermonIndex to help you along in this Christian Journey.
Soon we will be before the wonderful slain Lamb in heaven worshipping forever, let us prepare now for that time, living eternally minded now on earth.
I wrote a short ebook on: "Starting a House Church" you can download and read it here: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/701703.
Here is the first chapter I think is applicable to this conversation and questions you are raising about the need for the structure of the church.
The Church is not a new thing in the earth. We are actually a part of a body of believers that is over 2000 years old! Imagine it. For over 50 generations, the Church has been passed on to each subsequent group of believers and leaders. The Holy Scriptures have also been copied and passed on, and we still have them today. So when starting something new, like a house Church, it is a comfort to realize we are entering into something with great historical weight.
One of the accusations towards people starting house churches is that they are doing something new and innovative, with new doctrines. This can be true if someone is starting a church on their own ideas and basis, and if it does not historically line up with other believers throughout Church history and the Scriptures.
In other cases, some believers have not been able to submit to any Christian authority in their lives, always thinking they are right and others are wrong. In some cases also, believers starting house churches have been greatly hurt by other Christians or Christian leaders and, therefore, are seeking to protect themselves.
Christianity has, for 2000 years, gone through many periods of disagreements and divisions, but each successive generation seems aimed at repeating past mistakes, disagreeing with each other, and, in the end, separating to “do their own thing.” The current amount of division in the body of Christ speaks of this problem of not being able to agree on the common elements of the faith.
First Century Apostasy?
The main driving force of some people to start house churches is the strong belief that the entire Church, by and large, apostatized shortly after or during the life of the Apostle John. This means that the truth was lost, and the Church began to depart from God’s intention and direction. Therefore, there is a distrust of all of Church history and now some current house church movements are looked at as the restoring of the original Book of Acts Church.
What this also means is that there was always just a very small minority of those who somehow held to the truth, and the majority was always wrong. Does this type of thinking seem familiar?
I took a phone call once from a man who stated that he could not find others who believed his gospel. My first assumption was that, after he left the pastorate, he was simply having a hard time finding other fellow believers who would hold to similar convictions. After two hours on the phone with this man, I realized he was preaching another gospel (Galatians 1:8). His argument was that, after the death of the apostles, the truth died and only now, in the twenty-first century, it had been revived and he was the messenger. If someone attended a church of any kind, he stated, they were believing a lie (2 Thessalonians 2:11) and lost! When he asked me what my gospel was, I shared with him the blood atonement of Jesus Christ. His reaction was curse words!
One term for this type of thinking is Restorationism, which means the truth was lost with the apostles and now in our modern day is being restored. Such thinking is the seed-bed of many denominations and especially cults. Also this thinking is usually very exclusive, meaning that we have the truth that is restored and others do not. Even other restoration type groups fight amongst each other over who really is the group that the Lord is with. If Jesus came back, we could see the picture of all the leaders of these groups asking the Lord to verify their own church as the true and only church.
How do we know if our actions and words today are following in the same spirit of some of the opposers of the Gospel in the beginning of the Church? One test we can take is to ask ourselves: Do we consider God's Church sacred? (1 Corinthians 3:17). Or do we speak and treat other believers with little care, speaking our mind strongly and seeking to prove what we feel is right at any cost?
I have heard some people in our modern day speak without blushing that the entire Church has been wrong throughout history, and they now understand the true way. Most of the people I have heard espouse these new ideas do not fellowship in any church and also have moral laxity in their lives. In free thinking societies with complete religious freedom, we should have a great fear of God that we do not speak and teach in ways that are departing from “the faith once given to the saints” (Jude 1:3).
Being a Part of the Historic Church
Some believe that Church history began with Martin Luther in AD 1500, and to consider anything before that time is not worthwhile. Such thinking also has created a narrowed vision of the Church Jesus has established.
Perhaps we can consider another way of thinking. We can consider that the Lord has always had His Church (Matthew 16:18). It has not been perfect, has failed and, at times, has needed to be reformed and restored. There has always been a continuation in the work of God, and we are not called to start something new but rather continue something that is old. This does allow for new denominations but these groups should be helping to reform and build upon the 2000-year-old Church we are all a part of.
Individualistic evangelicalism has been leading to what today is over 42,000 denominations worldwide. God has called some of these groups to stand for a truth, yet not apart from the larger testimony of the Church throughout the ages. The Corinthians were of this individual carnal thinking, everyone doing what was right in their own eyes (1 Corinthians 3:4, Judges 21:25). It is a humbling reality that the Church did not begin with us and might not even end with us. We are just a part of God’s plan through the ages. Instead of trying to deconstruct what the Church is today, we should be seeking join with God’s testimony and possibly help reform it. What is exciting is that we can actually be a part of the Church Jesus is building in our day (Matthew 16:18). Being involved in a house church meeting can be very much the will of God and his leading.
Some things that keep us in line and with the historic Church is agreeance with statements of faith that ancient believers held to.
Along with common practices such as communion and water baptism, we can ensure we are a part of the Lord’s work by not being apart from other believers, or being so exclusive that we do not agree with any other believers in Church history.
Starting a house church can be a very simple thing to do but we must carry with it the solemn sense of carrying on what Jesus and the early apostles did.
Where is Jesus?
Some have asked: “Where is Jesus in the midst of so many denominations in Christianity today?” This is a good question, as the original intention of the Lord was surely not for so many churches to exist and compete against each other. One answer we can give: He is walking in the midst of all these groups and different churches. He is acknowledging those who are his, part of his one Church (Ephesians 4:5), those who are “in Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:17).
In the book of Revelation, we see the picture of Jesus in the midst of the early churches: “And among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.” (Revelation 1:13). What a wonderful picture to meditate on.
What will set our hearts in the same mind of the Lord is to also seek to be unified with all brothers and sisters in the Lord no matter what name of church or doctrinal emphasis or preference. Of course, that does not mean we unify with what is heretical or wrong. But it does mean we are filled with grace towards others and we realize that we only see “in part” (1 Corinthians 13:12) until the day we are before the Lord in heaven.
As you seek to follow the living Christ in exploring starting a house church, start with this prayer:
Lord, I am prone to see so earth-bound, the outward and what I have grown up in. Please give me a vision to see your Church as You see it. Allow me to be a part of Your work in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Amen.
Revival what? The people of God to be brought back to what God wants of the Church, and for the believer to be brought back to the authentic personal daily walks with Jesus Christ in discipleship and obedience.
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2018/11/3 8:47||Profile|
Campbell River, B.C.
| Re: |
Past revivals (real ones) have abiding fruit in that many people are born again for the first time, many lukewarm christians renewed, missionaries go to the mission field, Bibles are printed, the poor are clothed and fed, godlessness is pushed back for a season, etc.
Most of all, God is glorified in the sight of godless people.
| 2018/11/3 12:16||Profile|
| 2018/11/3 12:59|
| Re: Revival........... HA!!|
Dear Brother Tony,
I sense your frustration for I have known it myself many times.
The Lord directed me to this sermon in the middle of the night, which speaks of the very dryness you are expressing. There is but one answer for a season of refreshment.
The Wind of the Spirit.
The speaker is Fred Tomlinson listed under Audio Speakers.
If it even lights a small ember, may He blow life into us again.
| 2018/11/11 6:42||Profile|
Reigate, Surrey, UK
| Re: |
Thanks for your reply.
I guess I am speaking from a different point of view than the one you have put forward. Sermon index has always been an oasis of good teaching and I never seem to find the clowns out there on sermon index which is refreshing.
I would agree with house churches too, in my view the church as we see it today will be forced into such scenarios.
Lets take a look at the UK which is where I am, for the most part, while the church is clapping and singing on a Sunday and spewing out various worldly ways of attracting people into the church, we have 1750 mosque in the UK,one of them being the largest one in Europe, and we have 13 sharia law courts that have been allowed to operate legally.
We have areas of England that are simply no go zones due to sharia patrols that even the police do not challenge and many cities that are frequently becoming 'cleansed' of all christian families and churches.
So some have this impression of what revival should look like and others have a different view.
We are losing the battle when you look at the facts and the stats.... regardless of what your view is on revival.
I love the unity that the people of the UK had when Hitler was dropping bombs on us in the second world war. Everyone was in the same boat with a common enemy and they pulled together to help each other through all manner of horrors. There was a unity in the face of adversity and on my travels I rarely see acknowledgement of the adversity we face since for the most part it is seductive and invisible.
I thought about starting a house church too, I have been in them before but my gut feeling is whats wrong with the churches that are there at the moment, why would God want yet another one where pretty much the similar set up reflects what he already has.
For the record, I commend sermon index everywhere I go so not digging at you guys here or anyone on here. I want Jesus as much as you guys do and I agree with what your view of revival should be. The fact remains that we are losing ground and losing it fast.
I think of Nehemiah. God had to go over 200 miles away to speak to someone who cared because those living in Jerusalem had climatised to the way things were.
I will refrain from posting any more 'state of the church' post on here.. clearly the wrong platform for my comments and perhaps not the requirement amongst the calibre of people who are on here.
You mention that we should not try to deconstruct the church we have today but rather be a part of it. I disagree. I am a firm believer that the church we have now will be deconstructed in a short space of time. The good speakers you have on here are getting fewer as time goes by as if God is trying to whoo his bride in this ever decreasing window of opportunity. I guess in my own experiences I cannot see that they listen but just carry on.
| 2018/11/12 4:10||Profile|
Reigate, Surrey, UK
| Re: |
Thank you for that. I had a read and was greatly encouraged.
over the years I have seen many Christians fall away from the faith, move out of areas that are being over run, dive into false doctrine that suits their way of life, and the worst bit for me is seeing new Christians who never get off the starting block and go back into the world turning their backs on the gospel. I have see and experienced spiritual abuse, falsehood and and the acceptance of a worldly view of God who is only their to serve there own wants and needs.
Too much to bear, my heart is heavy and I feel crushed.
| 2018/11/12 4:24||Profile|
Reigate, Surrey, UK
| Re: |
all good scriptures but I was referring to the type of revival that most churches seek seems to be like the one that happened during the Toronto type revival.
It still doesn't take away from my comments that church these days has become predictable and is enveloped in a consumer mentality.
Isn't Psalm 119 from a man who went astray and was then afflicted. See how people pray to God under affliction. And there in lies my point.... If comfort is the reason that Christianity is losing ground then that is what the Lord will put his finger on.
| 2018/11/13 5:02||Profile|
| Re: |
"You mention that we should not try to deconstruct the church we have today but rather be a part of it. I disagree. I am a firm believer that the church we have now will be deconstructed in a short space of time. The good speakers you have on here are getting fewer as time goes by as if God is trying to whoo his bride in this ever decreasing window of opportunity. I guess in my own experiences I cannot see that they listen but just carry on."
Amen Tony, Some would have made the same arguments prior to the reformation. They would have said " dont try to deconstruct the Catholic church, just remain within it." They would have pointed back to the church fathers and to tradition. Of course they were wrong then and they are wrong now. The wine skin is old and if new wine were over poured out, given our present state, it would come in the midst of severe persecution and it would be poured into new wineskins.
Many people have a vested interest in maintaining the established church, it has always been that way. If you know church history you will know that right there is where the tension has always been, between those who want to maintain what they have and those whom the Lord has moved upon their hearts.
And the one ones who are the keepers and promoters of the status quo, were always the deadliest enemies of those whom the Holy Spirit had moved so mightily upon and burned into their bones the simple truth of the Scriptures. So great had the Holy Spirit convicted them that they were willing to give up everything and be apart from the established church over issues like infant baptism and so on, they even gave up their lives. This love of the truth is a direct gift from God and He has never stopped pouring it out upon His remnant people. This is where we see flesh operating against Spirit. There i enmity between the two.
God bless you Tony. Persecution is only going to continue to rise against the saints and in a way it is a separating process. It took persecution to scatter the saints from Jerusalem to go out and fulfill the commission and it will take persecution to refine and separate the saints in these the last days. The Lord is at the door and we must expect sever persecution in the midst of the greatest falling away we have ever seen. Yet, praise God even in the midst of all of that, He will neither leave His children nor forsake them.
Indeed as the enemy comes in like a flood He will raise up a mighty standard. And since it will be the greatest persecution ever seen then also the Spirit will move among His people in ways that have never been seen. He will move upon those who mourn and weep for the state of Christendom, He will be an enemy to those who try with all of their might to maintain a religious system and who are only concerned with their position and status in life..........bro Frank
| 2018/11/13 9:37|