SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : General Topics : Musings about Israel's dilemma and the just character of God

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 )
PosterThread
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 589


 Re:

I believe, Todd's question is valid and deserves a valid answer. There are statements in the opening post that can be disturbing or maybe careless assumptions.

 2018/10/25 12:11Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 4962
NC, USA

 Re:

Docs-/ don’t see an issue with that set up if punishment is not part of the equation.

Using my pushups example, telling my son to do something impossible is fine if the purpose is to encourage, etc. No problem with that whatsoever. But if I start whacking him because he was not able to do the full 100 on his first attempt, it enters the realm of shadow and darkness.


_________________
Todd

 2018/10/25 12:14Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1699


 Re:

/I believe, Todd's question is valid and deserves a valid answer. There are statements in the opening post that can be disturbing or maybe careless assumptions./

Which statements or assumptions specifically are you referring to? I'm not bowed up in the back or anything raring to start clawing back. I asked for any comments or discussion.

Thank you.


_________________
David Winter

 2018/10/25 12:31Profile
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 589


 Re:

"At the heart of Anselm's answer to that question was his understanding of God. Anselm saw that the chief reason a "God-man was necessary was the justice of God. That may seem to be a strange answer. Thinking of the cross and of Chris's atonement, we assume that the thing that most strenuously motivated God to send Christ into the world was His love or His mercy. As a result, we tend to overlook the characteristic of God's nature that makes the atonement absolutely necessary - His justice."

"God is loving, but a major part of what He loves is His own perfect character, with a major aspect being the importance of maintaining justice and righteousness (emphasis mine). Though God pardons sinners and makes
great provision for expressing His mercy, He will never negotiate His justice. If we fail to understand that, the cross of Christ will be utterly meaningless to us."

Is God a God of "cold justice"? Did He accomplished the atonement because He has to do it for His sake. Is God so engrossed with Himself and His own welfare?

1 Corinthians 13

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant

5 or rude.It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;

6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 2018/10/25 13:09Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1699


 Re:

/Is God a God of "cold justice"? Did He accomplished the atonement because He has to do it for His sake. Is God so engrossed with Himself and His own welfare?/

So have you ever really considered that God's own just requirements, stemming from who He Himself is at His core, was a major component of the sacrifice of one innocent at Calvary? I don't think I've considered it as much as I should. Yes, God is full of love and mercy and expresses it in many ways yet a large part of sending Christ into the world was so that God's demands for perfect justice, stemming from the standard of His own perfect character, could be met. He justly punished Christ in our place. God will not compromise with sin. It must be punished.

Dr. Sproul wrote, "As a result, we tend to overlook the characteristic of God's nature that makes the atonement absolutely necessary - His justice."

/Is God a God of "cold justice"?/

I don't think it's a matter of cold justice. It is a matter of what was absolutely required before God could redeem and enter back into fellowship with man.

/Did He accomplished the atonement because He has to do it for His sake??

YES. Dr. Sproul - "Thus, the necessity for the atonement of Christ finds its genesis, in the first instance, in the character of God. Because He is holy and righteous, He cannot excuse sin. Rather, He must pass judgment on it. The Judge of all the earth must do right. Therefore, He must punish sin - or provide a way to atone for their sin."

Meanwhile, the Lord laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

/Is God so engrossed with Himself and His own welfare?/

I would not think that God's welfare was ever at stake because of the sin of man. Which underlines and highlights dramatically the cross of Christ. God could have folded the show but He chose not to. He chose instead to provide a just atonement which is the ONLY remedy for sin and the punishment due it. Meanwhile, as long as Israel still goes about trying to establish their own righteousness (Rom 10:1-4)they remain caught on the horns of a dilemma which every man is caught on - God requires that of man (righteousness) which cannot be found in man. It has to come from another source.

Perhaps the bells and whistles attached to so much of the gospel proclamation today could be remedied and real revival would come if this basic issue were preached again. I don't claim to have the entire solution to the lack of revival but this perhaps is part of it.

PTL.


_________________
David Winter

 2018/10/25 14:26Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1816


 Re: 100 pushups



This may be a good time to revisit this thread;

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=56202&forum=48

 2018/10/25 17:53Profile
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 589


 Re:

What I am pointing out is, in the pursuit of an argument, we may unnecessarily portray the Lord in a careless manner, with our tremendous statements, take for example,

"God is loving, but a major part of what He loves is His own perfect character, with a major aspect being the importance of maintaining justice and righteousness (emphasis mine)",

Can we not make a statement that would portray God better or otherwise we might as well just remain in silence.

Has God did not declare it this way:

John 15:3 "Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends".

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life".

Hebrews 9:22 "Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins".

Does He need to vacillate His thoughts or actions back and forth between the principles of love and justice like a human being.

 2018/10/25 20:23Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1699


 Re:

/What I am pointing out is, in the pursuit of an argument, we may unnecessarily portray the Lord in a careless manner, with our tremendous statements, take for example,

"God is loving, but a major part of what He loves is His own perfect character, with a major aspect being the importance of maintaining justice and righteousness (emphasis mine)",

Can we not make a statement that would portray God better or otherwise we might as well just remain in silence./

You haven't pointed out why you think this portrayal is careless. You just point out it is careless. Why do you think that? It may not be normal statement such as some think of it. But it's not too hard to discern that by "a major part of what He loves is His own perfect character" Sproul meant God will not wink at sin but will only fellowship with holiness and righteousness which in essence is what He is.

Do you think any aspect of God's required justice was in play at Calvary? He expressed His love in that He willingly chose to punish His Son on behalf of others. Divine justice required it.

God also spoke in this way,

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief...

11 He shall see the travail of His soul and be satisfied. (Isaiah 53:10-11)

God was satisfied because the requirements of divine justice had been paid. Sin has to be punished. It's part of the internal justice and character of God. The wonder is that He loved us enough to make this astonishing sacrifice on our behalf! It provided a means by which man would be able to be extricated from the divine dilemma of being required to maintain a immutable standard of righteousness but being unable to find it within themselves to do so.




_________________
David Winter

 2018/10/25 20:52Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1699


 Re: passerby

I can see to a degree what you mean about perhaps a couple of the statements. Yet at the same time I don't think Dr. Sproul ventured too far out of orthodoxy or whatever in making his statements. So I hear what you are saying and haven't just dismissed them.

Thank you for your replies.


_________________
David Winter

 2018/10/26 15:00Profile





©2002-2018 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy