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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Justification by faith alone and the righteousness controversy simplified

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Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 817
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Fletcher: Maybe you don't want to converse with me on this, so I'll toss this out and see what you do with it.

The if's are not there because 'our free-will power has the final ace to play in this game of life', its there because the unregenerate and unlearned do not know that abiding is what brings fruit, obeying is what reveals love for Jesus, faith not human capability avails to obtain the promises of God. But without the indwelling Spirit, none of those 'ifs' are even possible. There is no way anyone can be obedient, operate in faith or bring forth spiritual fruit without the inworking God doing what he calls us to do.

The unregenerate and the unlearned do not know this and therefore it is necessary to bring those 'ifs' to light.

But the if's are not meant to be the pivotal point on which a Christian lives out his life of faith, it's lived on the basis of being approved 'not if I am approved or when I am approved', its not 'if I am abiding" it's I now abide and now I bring forth fruit, its not if I obey, it's I am indwelt and filled with the Spirit, I will obey and I will do the will of God because God works in me to will and do.

Living as a new covenant believer is about living in what we are, we have believed therefore we abide, we believe therefore we bare fruit, we do not live according to some 'initiation stage' or some 'potential stage' where eternal life, the power of the Spirit and the kingdom of God are goals, we have these now as believers.

You know this, but you too have a narrative that mentally puts you outside of the covenant into a place where you respond to the 'ifs' as though you were not in the covenant.

The earnest of our inheritance is not a 'trial offer', it is the investment God makes, not you, nor your will, but God who has undertaken to save you to the uttermost. The Spirit of God takes you beyond 'ifs' into possessing the promises and seeing and beholding Christ as not your potential savior, but as your actual right now Savior.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/10/9 17:45Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1043
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Brother Marvin,
Thank you for offering an opportunity to correspond, and I meant no disrespect earlier by not engaging your posts. It’s simply a time factor as the hurricane approaches there are lots of preparations, and work has been quite demanding as well as having my kids out on fall break at home with my wife visiting family several states over and a death in my extended family,... I’ve tried to keep my opportunities to be here on SI as focused as possible which resulted in me engaging brother David primarily. I did not mean to slight yourself or the other saints who contributed to this thread-

Having said that, I do very much enjoy your posts and read them often, gleaning from the wisdom of a well seasoned saint... even and especially when they differ from my own understandings.

In the most recent as well as one previous post of yours on this thread, I simply cannot accept the framework with which you present your position as for me it misses the point I’m hoping to hilite. While they assuredly represent your perspective they are foreign to my own-

I’ll try to be succinct but that’s not my strong suit so I’ll limit my response to one aspect in hopes of isolating the issue in a simple manner tho that’s not to say it doesn’t permeate the whole lump-

Regarding free will, (for me) the whole point of God equipping us with one is to give us the opportunity to choose to yield it to Him, in faith. Much like a wife clearly has a choice regarding her husbands wishes, she can yeild or go her own way. Notice she is married, which parallels our union with Christ or salvation- however if she is to be considered a “good or faithful wife” she must yield her will, deferring to his. Likewise if we are to be considered “good and faithful servants/sons” we must yield our will, deferring to His. Hence the consistent analogies throughout the scriptures paralleling the two.
Again (for me) here is the genius of Gods plan, as this presupposes active participation of each individual member as they are not only connected to but in service of the head, which is Christ. This participation is moment to moment or glory to glory and the result is the two becoming one not only in purpose but also in intent. Much like a marriage where when both spouses are of one mind and wholeheartedly working together towards a single goal there is something resulting from their union that I will call, emergent properties. Now there are many times that whole still very much married, the two are not one in purpose, intent or even objectives... yet they are still married. Gods faithfulness towards us is literally the stuff of life, it is unquestionable and so He, knowing our frailty of character, constantly reminds us of His patience, mercy, grace, etc so as to encourage us to not give up or give in but even when we do, He still supports us not leaving or forsaking us. Like a good husband would when his wife falls short. Now the matter in question, justification, is like unto marriage in that it is a deposit of not only intent but also ones most precious resource, ones life itself. However for this to be functional it has to be reciprocal meaning a choice to participate by both parties, else it is illegitimate. For God to force Himself upon someone, disregarding their desire not to be in union with Him would be a form of rape,... this I cannot find the slightest evidence of in scripture. If it were there, I would accept it- full stop.
But time and time again we find where He is asking us to join Him, partaking of His divine nature and being transformed by it. Jesus, for example, invites us to be yoked together with Him,... now for a yoke to work both parties have to not only be working as one towards a single objective but also taking up the slack of the other, helping to displace any deficits by the power of the union itself.
So the “if” to which I refer is specifically to this end,... if we continue to stay yoked to Him, He promises to supply all our needs but I find the scriptures to plainly state we can walk away... just like in a marriage a wife can, in spite of having good and loving husband, walk away. This doesn’t mean the husband doesn’t love his ex-wife but it does limit His access as for Him to impose himself upon her would, at that point, be criminal not only in intent but also in action.

I hope that helps to clarify my understanding and I do appreciate you reaching out and initiating correspondence, and please do know I meant no slight to you for not engaging you sooner.


_________________
Fletcher

 2018/10/9 21:02Profile
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 589


 Re:

Post-conversion free will and active participation in repentance, justification, and abidance to the saving grace; is there any difference?

Is justification a one time or a continuous deal.




 2018/10/10 21:07Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1700


 Re:

Justification is a one time event. At justification you don't get part of Christ's righteousness with the rest to come if you do and walk right. At justification you get all of Christ's righteousness - 100%. It's impossible to get less than 100%. Then immediately good works begin to appear and the process of sanctification begins which lasts over a life time.


_________________
David Winter

 2018/10/10 22:20Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1043
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Passerby,

In my understanding, Justification (forgiveness of past sin) is a clearing of the slate so as to make an active relationship with God possible. It’s (for me) the beginning of salvation but not an end in and of itself. Justification is to our relationship with God as a wedding day is for a couple,... sure it’s a big deal and very important, however it’s just the beginning of what is supposed to be a lifelong endeavor- though I’m sure you know many don’t make it to the end-
Personally I believe that is why the scriptures employ so many different analogies; marriage, soldiers, athletes, farmers, vinedressers, etc... as these are not only relatable to most anyone in any culture or age but they all share a common theme of development/cultivation, growth/progression, devotion/endurance and of course fruit bearing/rewards. Again I believe the Lord has presented Himself in this way to be approachable by all including children and not just the well learned scholars. Everything in life works this way,... our bodies and creation itself works this way- it’s readily apparent if we want to see:)
Interestingly the “world” works quite differently-
To be clear, the only part I see that we play in our justification at all is the accepting of what God has already done for (to our benefit) us through Christ Jesus,... much like a woman accepts the invitation to be wed and in an instant is transformed into a bride- but if being a bride is her primary objective, she has missed the point of being a wife;)


_________________
Fletcher

 2018/10/11 0:13Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 817
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Fletcher: I have been praying for you and for the many who are suffering from Hurricane Michael.

I appreciate your reply in the midst of storms.

Rather than dissect your analogies or dice up the nuances within your metaphors it would be better it seems to address specific texts.

What I will say up front, our understandings of God's grace extended to us in the form of Justification may appear a bit blurry to each of us, looking at the others grasp of God's goodness we end up disagreeing over some particulars in our understandings but know good and well God has revealed to us his lovingkindness and given us great mercies and forgiveness.

With some they intermix sanctification with justification so when analogy and metaphor decorate definition and explanation the dissenter gets entangled in nuances that really don't undermine the ones belief or validate the other.

For now, my concern is on other matters.

I praise God for men like you Fletcher.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/10/11 9:38Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1700


 Re:

That's just about the way I see it JFW. Good description.

Thanks to everyone who has responded and shared.

It's noteworthy that in the Concordance only one word separates the words justification and righteousness. They are intimately connected with one another. If you have been made righteous in Christ it is because you have been justified. If you are justified it is because you have been made righteous in Christ. And as I stated before, I don't believe one can be justified by receiving less that 100% of Christ's righteousness. To receive less is an impossibility I would think.


_________________
David Winter

 2018/10/11 9:39Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1043
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Brother Marvin,

Thank you sooo much for your prayers!!! And your gracious manner😇
They are very much appreciated as it indeed got a bit dicey during the storm, which was a first for my boys and my wife whom arrived just before the storm-
The Lord covered us as a hen does her chicks and we were well protected! Though we had a few roof leaks and have been without power since yesterday around 3 pm and a substantial clean up in store, overall we faired quite well as many others have and are suffering greatly:(
please remember to lift them in prayer 🙏🏻

In any case, I very much value the decorum shown by the saints contributing in this thread as unity (for me) doesn’t necessarily mean we agree 100%,... it means we, in spite of our differences, are united under/in the Lordship of Christ and the fellowship of His Spirit :)


_________________
Fletcher

 2018/10/11 10:12Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 866


 Re:

Fletcher,
I, for another was concerned for you there in the storm,... and am very thankful that you and your family are alright.
I soo appreciate your voice here on SI, as well as others.

I have keeping up w/ this thread,...
Thought it a very deep, but good analogy about the wife, ...

God bless you there as you , I am sure, have so very much work to do.
It was over- whelming after Katrina for us here.

—————♥️
elizabeth



 2018/10/11 15:02Profile





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