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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Justification by faith alone and the righteousness controversy simplified

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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1697


 Re:

/Brother David,
Thanks for being candid :)
So regarding the one and done justification... do you see justification as salvation unto eternal life?/

Yes. I don't believe it is possible to be justified and not be truly saved. Justification is a clearing of our record before God and rendering us in His eyes jus as if we had never sinned. We are acquitted on the basis of the merits of Christ's perfect obedience. The only way to acquire this is by faith alone and this does not leave a person unchanged. The sinner then becomes indwelt by the Holy Spirit which gives Him the inward moral desire and empowerment to walk after God's ways and commandments.

Quoting from the same book I have already referenced,

"Those who possess saving faith necessarily, inevitably, and immediately begin to manifest fruits of faith, which are works of obedience. The grounds of the person's justification, however, remains solely and exclusively the imputed righteousness of Christ. It is by His righteousness and His righteousness alone that the sinner is declared to be just and is really just in Him." (R. C. Sproul)

It's as fascinating a study that one can perhaps possibly do in my opinion. It provides real insight into the details of one's salvation and what really occurred.


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David Winter

 2018/10/9 7:31Profile
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 Re:

Bother David,
Again thank you for responding and helping to clarify.... I suppose it’s here where there’s a difference in our understanding-

Brother Todd,
As usual you are more succinct that I, as your post well summerizes my long winded post.

I simply do not find a scriptural basis for a “gospel of forgiveness” where forgiveness itself equals eternal life in Christ....
while I’m not advocating a performance gospel, I am advocating a participation gospel as I believe the scriptures clearly teach from beginning to end-


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Fletcher

 2018/10/9 9:10Profile
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 Re:

/Bother David,
Again thank you for responding and helping to clarify.... I suppose it’s here where there’s a difference in our understanding-/

Out of curiosity and not trying to stir anything, what exactly do you see as our difference of understanding?

Blessings.


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David Winter

 2018/10/9 9:44Profile
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Joined: 2011/10/21
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 Re:

Brother David,
Per your question-
Here is where we have a different understanding, you wrote;
“Yes. I don't believe it is possible to be justified and not be truly saved.”
This is tantamount to OSAS and I cannot confess that I find this in the scriptures,... but quite the opposite.

For me the “if” in the new covenant preclude this...


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Fletcher

 2018/10/9 10:31Profile
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 Re: New Covenant

The new Covenant is the PERSON of Christ Living and abiding within us now. He is our Surety of a Better Covenant. His LIFE removes all the "if's" and replaces them with since or because. So as a result of His life the "if's" are fulfilled by HIS active LIFE within us.

Here is what Andrew Murray wrote in his book - The Two Covenants.

"A SURETY is one who stands good for another, that a certain engagement will be faithfully performed. Jesus is the Surety of the New Covenant. He stands surety with us for God--- that God's part in the Covenant will faithfully be performed. And He stands surety with God for us, that our part will be faithfully performed too. If we are to live in covenant with God, everything depends upon our knowing aright what Jesus secures to us. The more we know and trust Him, the more assured will our faith be that its every promise and every demand will be fulfilled, that a life of faithful keeping of God's Covenant is indeed possible, because Jesus is the Surety of the Covenant. He makes God's faithfulness and ours equally sure."

I pay this often, "Lord Jesus, no matter what I do, say, think, or feel, I know that You are ALWAYS dwelling right here, inside my heart."


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Vern

 2018/10/9 13:17Profile
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 Re: The "if" of the New Covenant

I would ask if one is justified how does it at that very moment depend on what one will do in the future? I would propose that if you have been moved to repentance and have been given the gift of true faith that when you call upon the Lord for salvation you are 100% justified at that moment.

The New Covenant

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.

33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

35 Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The Lord of hosts is His name:

36 “If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the Lord,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

37 Thus says the Lord,

“If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done,” declares the Lord.

docs: These verses include, "I will never cast Israel off for what they have done" etc. is presented in the context of the arrival of a new and better covenant (the law written in their minds and hearts. If God promises never to forsake or cast off Israel even when they sin then why isn't the same true for us believers who have been justified by the blood of Israel's Messiah? The weakness of men and their flesh cannot nullify the promises of the new covenant. If God will be this faithful to Israel then why not His church? If you are truly justified you are going to make it. It does not seem to depend on "if" but rather God's faithfulness to you such as He has always expressed to the believing remnant of Israel. If that is true for them then why not us? Being honest, I've never known many truly born again people who have turned away. A very few here and there. Perhaps their fate remains a mystery to a degree but is there such a thing as being "unjustified?" Our understanding of the new covenant and the power of justification should maybe be based not so much on avoiding the conditional "if" but concentrating on God's faithfulness best typified by His dealings with Israel and the lasting power of justification seen in New Testament saints who believe.

I'm eating a snack and sitting here. I don't have all the answers and talk too much. But I love talking about these things because there is much to learn from every angle even if we disagree a bit. Justification from God is the real deal. I know you know this.

Blessings.


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David Winter

 2018/10/9 13:18Profile
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 Re:

Hi Fletcher: you said...

This is tantamount to OSAS and I cannot confess that I find this in the scriptures,... but quite the opposite.

I believe the scripture teaches us that God works in us, that our perseverance and endurance to endure unto the end is due to his indwelling Spirit. OSAS is a caricature of the doctrine of perseverance and scriptural assurance.
I suppose it's intent was to simplify the doctrine of assurance...but instead over time created more debate than it answered questions.

It appears this caricature is now associated with the actual truth of biblical perseverance and assurance. So debate ensues based upon an inadequate study of perseverance and assurance as the scripture declare.

As was well stated earlier, the "if" conditions of scripture are answered with the "you-are" conditions of being a new-creation of Christ, that Christ dwelling in us does the works and brings us safely to the end of our faith and the reward of that faith.

I believe this is where Paul Washer and others like him have attacked the easy-believism of our day and unmasked the falsehoods surrounding the confessions of so many with the marked lack of sanctification and general spiritual condition.

There is no such thing as a genuine conversion that does not result in a new creation that works righteousness by faith and increases in holiness and grows in conformity to Christ.

Part of the problem we have faced over the decades has been terrible teaching and false conversions/confessions whereby compromises were made to bring assurance to those whom God has not given his Spirit.


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Marvin

 2018/10/9 14:22Profile
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 Re:

David you said:

When I studied Reformed teaching on this it took mew a while to sort it all out but as I said before knowing the difference between imputed and infused is SORELY needed among Pentecostals.

I attended a Pentecostal fellowship for almost a year where the doctrine of justification was just then being preached to the congregants, oh my, it was as if they had found an unknown and buried truth from the days of the apostles.

To a degree, there prayers, their worship, their desire for empowering lay upon that general lacking...namely they didn't understand they were justified by faith, so in order to accomplish sanctification their need for rededication, re-filling of the Holy Spirit and recommitting themselves to Christ all stemmed from their lack of assurance that Jesus saved them with an actual salvation, not a potential one dependent upon their spiritual fruit and good works.


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Marvin

 2018/10/9 14:30Profile
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 Re: 1st world Christian problem


Remember brothers/sisters we are discussing this in terms of open Christian preaching available everywhere.

There are Christians who cannot read, don't own a bible, have no idea about our doctrines and do not have Christian books that they can even read let alone decide upon if they are orthodox or not.

God's indwelling Spirit settles the matter regardless of knowledge, doctrine, works, or affiliations with orthodox Churches.

Jesus saves people based upon his grace, not because our place in the world has secured better "means" by which we may add them to "why we got saved".

Jesus gives real grace to real sinners that they may obtain a real true salvation in this life, so that they with that earnest of their inheritance declare the glory of God by obedience and good works.


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Marvin

 2018/10/9 14:38Profile
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 Re:

Brother David,
The “if” to which I refer has nothing to do with God but with man.... the scriptures are clear that God IS faithful- full stop.
However man is not as a general rule, as such we get the “if you abide”, “if you preserve”, “if you obey”, etc...
I see justification and the initial giving of Holy Spirit as a down payment, per Eph 1 and that is God initiating His good will towards us tho we are repeatedly charged in every book of the new covenant to utilize and make use of the faith and grace given us and not fail it and fall short, which it clearly states. If it were not possible to fail/fall short why even mention it to believers whom had already received down payment, justification, Holy Spirit as they wouldn’t need to hear such and would inevitably lead to confusion?
What interests me is how with the same data points we come to totally different conclusions,... so we must be working with different narratives. When I came to this impasse personally I decided to reread the new covenant, laying down preconceived notions (as best I could) and view it objectively as possible allowing the intended narrative to develop itself-
This was an eye opener as Jesus became more beautiful and far more real than ever before along with clarifying many issues I had previously had.


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Fletcher

 2018/10/9 15:26Profile





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