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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Letting them walk away

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Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 819
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Bro. Travis:

Your last explanation is wonderful and I heartily agree.

Thank you for the clarification and for the gracious reply.

You said:
"I think the problem all too often is that we mistake the benefit for the purpose. Does being reconciled mean that I am going to heaven. Praise God yes. Is reconciliation about going to heaven? I would say no, and also that to say it was about going to heaven would be to preach much less than the truth, and possibly lead people astray."

This careful distinction as you've articulated exposes a self-centeredness that eclipses the glorious gospel wherever it is allowed to remain.

Such distinctions help all of us to clarify the good from evil and holy from the unholy.

I believe this kind of clarity helps the true follower to know he/she is being true to the gospel and right in the sight of God.

Lastly your heart cry is my heart cry and all those who love the Lord Jesus.

Yes, such clarity affords such a bold statement because love rejoices in the truth.


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Marvin

 2018/10/17 11:44Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

Online!
 Re:

Hi Travis,

Thank you for your posts on this topic. It is a blessing and timely to read what you have stated about reconciliation being the prime issue, not just a means to an end.

This is something I have been meditating on recently as well.
I had the opportunity recently to share the gospel with a couple of folk in a Muslim country, although they professed not to be Muslim themselves. In the whole discussion I at one point used the illustration (as per Way of The Master) of standing before the judge at the end of your life and being found guilty, but if you had Jesus as your savior He then would step forward and say "I have paid the penalty of Sin for him", so the judge (God) says you can go free and into heaven. I don't know why I used this illustration, as I have previously not been comfortable with it being right. Yes it explains the concept of Christ being punished in our place, but it is not what will happen in reality.

One of the folk in particular struggled with this concept and considered that he would be inheriting a heaven that was not really his home. I knew I had missed the essence of explaining eternal life, so it made me later think about this and I realized (what I really already knew and should have presented) that the gospel is about reconciliation with God, being justified (made righteous) through the redemption of Christ's sacrifice for us. As believers We are NOW reconciled and in the family of God, not under condemnation, NOT waiting for future judgement of Sin. Our Sin has already been judged in Christ and we are heirs of God, co-heirs with Christ which includes eternal life and heaven. If Heaven is our home NOW, it is only natural that is where we will end up at the end of our life. We belong to God NOW, so we will continue to be with Him for eternity!

This puts a different emphasis of how we share the gospel. As Paul said " We urge you, be reconciled to God".


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Dave

 2018/10/18 6:58Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3208
Louisiana

 Re:

Brother Travis,

I would have contacted you privately but I couldn’t find that information on your profile. The Lord has opened a door for me to host a program on a local Christian radio program in which I interview pastors and leaders.
If you would like to do an interview by phone, please contact me by accessing the information on my profile. The main focus of the interview would be on what the Lord is doing in the fellowship that you are a part of.

I had an excellent interview last week with Brother Blaine on the persecuted church.


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Mike

 2018/10/18 7:07Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1904
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
the gospel is about reconciliation with God, being justified (made righteous) through the redemption of Christ's sacrifice for us. As believers We are NOW reconciled and in the family of God, not under condemnation, NOT waiting for future judgement of Sin. Our Sin has already been judged in Christ and we are heirs of God, co-heirs with Christ which includes eternal life and heaven. If Heaven is our home NOW, it is only natural that is where we will end up at the end of our life. We belong to God NOW, so we will continue to be with Him for eternity!



Dave: Very well said brother. When I stand before God, it will not be to await a decision about my fate. If He sees me right now as righteous in His eyes because of Jesus, then He will see me then in the same way. I don't think the courtroom analogy works because there will be no courtroom where my fate is determined. Through Christ it already has been determined. I am in Him. I have become righteous by His sacrifice. I am reconciled and right with Him. That brings about an entirely different discussion, the judgement, that must be saved for another time.
\
Blessings Brother.


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Travis

 2018/10/18 13:37Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1904
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Bro. Mike: I would be glad to do this for you. I will contact you privately very soon.

Blessings.


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Travis

 2018/10/18 13:38Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 819
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Heydave;

Since Jesus sacrifice is substitutionary, it's perfectly acceptable to present Jesus as 'taking our place'.

Now, I wouldn't question how you witnessed or your wording, analogies and symbolism are everywhere in scripture and its no surprise the Spirit of God leads us to use them in various circumstances.

When I am countered by someone saying "heaven is not really his home' (though maybe not that exact wording) I bring to them the reality of their current state, that is, your home should be Heaven, otherwise your judgment will be damnation which is no real home to anyone.
Jesus has already appeared to God as a sacrifice for the sins of his people, he lays down his life for his sheep.
The reality is, by default you have a destiny coming, a judgment that is a fearful thing. (I always speak plainly, usually they have never heard anything like that even in church)
If you decide to minister on the subject of reconciliation, by necessity you need to inform them of their alienation from God, their sinful heart and works that cause them to hide from God. It's because of that estrangement from God, of course 'heaven is not really my home' because in fact it is not your home, your life has been lived as if there is no God and there is no heaven.

If your hearer will begin to concede these truths are applicable to him/herself, the blessed part of what it means to become reconciled to God can enter the conversation and you can inform them of what the new life Jesus gives will do in the heart of a reconciled man or woman or child.

For me, it is better to listen carefully so that from their responses you can pinpoint what manner of man they are.

The gospel we present deals with bringing us from darkness to light, once we are in the light, we learn to walk in the light as he is in the light.

Edit to add: It's not as though you need me to tell you how to share the gospel, I am just giving some of my responses to some who have likewise told me "I didn't ask Jesus to die for me".


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Marvin

 2018/10/18 15:50Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

Online!
 Re:

Hi Marvin, you wrote......

"Jesus has already appeared to God as a sacrifice for the sins of his people, he lays down his life for his sheep.
The reality is, by default you have a destiny coming, a judgment that is a fearful thing. (I always speak plainly, usually they have never heard anything like that even in church)
If you decide to minister on the subject of reconciliation, by necessity you need to inform them of their alienation from God, their sinful heart and works that cause them to hide from God. It's because of that estrangement from God, of course 'heaven is not really my home' because in fact it is not your home, your life has been lived as if there is no God and there is no heaven. " End Quote.
____________________________________________________________

Yes I absolutely agree with this and this is what I had already said in similar words when sharing the gospel with these folk. Sorry I did not make that clear when I was focusing on the reconcilation aspect.
The point I was making was that we need to then emphasise the need to be reconciled to God now by the work of Christ in their lives and then they will be living in the present reality of being a child of God, walking in that relationship and heaven will be their home country, as it were. Looking to that blessed day when we are taken home!

It's not just about penal substitution so we can get into heaven, but penal substitution so we can be reconciled to God and heaven is the natural consequence, because it's where we belong.


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Dave

 2018/10/18 16:44Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 819
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re: why be reconciled?


Dave/Travis:

I realize Travis hit upon a blessed note in speaking so eloquently on the subject, all of which I believe and teach myself but I would warn both you and Travis...

The Pentecostals' did this years back.

Their witnessing took the form of 'what it looks like to be a Jesus person 'reconciled as it were' to God and what good blessing it is to be loved and known by God.

All of that being perfectly biblical.

Because they so emphasized this 'new life' without the equally important emphasis on carrying the cross of Christ, they became naïve about the sinful nature of their hearers who quickly turned this 'new life' into a means for their own ends.
Namely believe on Jesus, be forgiven and God will bless you abundantly, yet strangely absent was the understanding of their actual alienation from God, their inward enmity and their wicked heart always seeking to find glory for itself even in religious activities.

In effect, dying to self and taking up the cross became passe' it is all about being filled with the Spirit and doing the works of God etc. But when you're not dead to self, and you have not understood that Christianity has never been about 'gaining a new means to accomplish your own goals' their converts struggled, looked for preachers and teachers who will cater to their self+Jesus way of thinking.

So, yea, I get it that being reconciled to God is an absolute necessity to preach and in fact I quoted the Romans texts declaring we are given the 'ministry of reconciliation'. But that reconciliation it to be understood as it is in relation to carrying the cross and death to living after the manner of the world.

So, there is no over-emphasis of penal substitution, as if it is going to get in the way of 'living a reconciled life before God'. It will not, it lays the absolute necessity of a proper foundation, that being man is completely incapacitated to serve God as God has commanded, and man is only going to inject more confusion pain and suffering into the lives of others by means of their self+Jesus falsehood.

Our enemy is clever, he knows how to misdirect.

I hope you can see that this is no attempt by me to toss water on your fire, I am attempting to declare the importance of a full gospel, nothing lacking, not penal substitution or reconciliation.

Long before believers come to see what Travis sees as the 'purpose' of reconciliation, people need to see the absolute necessity of it.

Preaching to the choir is easy, preaching to the lost and ignorant requires a dependence upon the work of the Spirit on people who have no conception of what we all take for granted and easily accept.


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Marvin

 2018/10/19 10:15Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

Online!
 Re:

Marvin,

You are making false assumptions about what I believe regarding salvation and preaching to the lost. I had no contention with what you wrote and was just clarifying it a bit more. However I did not intend to write a full theological treatise on every aspect of salvation!

Please do not read things into what I said or did not say that were never actually stated. I certainly did NOT say there was an over emphasis on Penal substitution or that it was not important, what I said was, the purpose was to reconcile us to God, not get us into heaven. That point also aplies to the insinuation that I would preach an easy believism gospel with no cross.

This is a discussion forum where we can discuss various aspects of our faith, so please, a bit more grace and don't jump to conclusions about folk you don't know.

Maybe your an 'expert' evagelist who has everyyhing perfect. I thank God He takes my weakness and inadequate ability to communicate and uses it for His glory and purpose. I can no more or less than be faithful with what I have.

God bless.


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Dave

 2018/10/19 13:05Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 819
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Whoa Dave: sometimes I really hate discussion boards, posts that are meant to convey one thing end up conveying something entirely opposite.

First off, please forgive me if I sounded presumptuous or offensive, I would not question your preaching or ministry to the lost in any way, in fact I've prayed for you in the past and God's glorifying himself through you. I know God has done this very thing.

As to perfection-anything I have a hard time just getting posts written that convey an edifying intent. I biffed it on this one.

'expert evangelist' I'd like to meet one, all the godly ones I know say this " He takes my weakness and inadequate ability to communicate and uses it for His glory and purpose. I can no more or less than be faithful with what I have." Im in the same camp...as if that needed saying.

I have some experiences in areas and my attempt to add them as advise obviously was worded poorly.

my "warning" to you and Travis was not because you don't know the truth, but because you know it you recognize
in all of our best preaching there are ditches on either side and the deceiving thing about the ditch is it looks like a wider-spot on the same road were on.

Again, Dave my sincere apologies to and Travis my intent was to share what I experienced, not take away from you the good things God has given to you.


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Marvin

 2018/10/19 13:42Profile





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