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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Letting them walk away

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twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1904
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Kurt: Brother, it has been a real process of God. He has had to totally rearrange our thinking and do a work of transformation in our lives. Yes, it continues. God is still doing great things. But the biggest thing He is doing is changing us personally.

For years I read about Wigglesworth, Lake, and the like. I read the book of Acts. On occasion during my life I have seen some very rare instances of these things happening among those I have fellowshipped with, but never on a consistent basis. I was hungry for more of God, and I knew that the manifestation of His Holy Spirit would be these things Biblically, but I did not know how to get there.

So, my wife and I went here and there and in and out of many different movements. We have been to many word of faith meetings and conferences. We spent time delving into IHOP KC and the prayer and prophetic movements. We somehow had it in our minds that someone must be "doing it right" and seeing the power of God manifest. But I have learned by experience that God's anointing and power is not found in any particular way of doing things.

You mentioned the simple music. That is not what is causing or contributing to what God is doing. That is simply something that God asked us as a body to do for the time being. He could just as easily tell us tomorrow to set up a worship team with many instruments, or start a choir, or just sing as a congregation. No magic formulas here. He just wanted that for our body for right now.

I say that to say this. We see people doing this or that and we see God moving, and we somehow think that what they are doing is the "right" thing to do to get God to move. We then seek to copy it, hoping for the same results. The only result is that we are off track, trying in our flesh to repeat something that is spiritual, and it always flops. It either dies or gets weird.

I will break this up and start another post.


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Travis

 2018/10/11 12:11Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1904
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

I have learned that seeing a powerful move of God in my life is not a result of my adopting any particular set of practices. It is about my seeking to be transformed by God into the man that He has always intended for me to be.

So, as a church, we have been on a five year journey. God has absolutely transformed us and is continuing to do so (we have so far to go, and we realize that we fall so short of His glory). We have noticed that God has highlighted areas of our lives that He wants to change and then He has been very deliberate about keeping us focused on those areas for long periods of time. This has come through revelation of His word.

When I say revelation, I am not talking about some new teaching or doctrine. I am simply talking about His word suddenly becoming more than intellectual knowledge, and instead becoming a living and transforming agent in our lives. It is like His word is coming alive and we are seeing what He meant, what His heart is, more and more as we read and study.

These revelations have been in several key areas. One was a revelation of salvation and the gospel. We began to see that altar calls and sinners prayers for the sake of salvations is not what the gospel and the plan of salvation is all about. God's plan for each and every man was written before the foundations of the world. Each of us has, for lack of better words, a preordained destiny. The problem is, most people never realize this plan of God for their lives. His desire from the beginning was that we would be conformed to His image, be partakers of His divine nature, and walk as Jesus walked, empowered by His Holy Spirit, for the sake of being ministers of reconciliation to the world. To be reconciled does not mean to be qualified for heaven. Praise God for that, but to be reconciled means to be restored to right relationship. Unfortunately, I believe, a vast number of Christians have not real concept of this. Their salvation is about their own ticket to heaven and the promise of a blessed life for themselves.

So the second really big revelation was that we have been called to die before we can have new life. Rebirth cannot happen before death, and God made it so real to us that dying to self, total surrender to God, is the only path to true salvation. We have not had any kind of salvation altar call whatsoever in something like four years. Yet we are seeing people be born again and absolutely transformed. We have never, not even once, taught anything like a sinners prayer. Instead, we have taught death to self and total surrender to God.

The third was a powerful revelation of God's love for us. This is one that absolutely transformed by own life. So many believers have a view that God's love for them is predicated on their own performance. Some just don't understand what love is at all. But God has made this so powerfully real to us. From that foundation of His love, we have seen our faith grow by leaps and bounds.

The fourth was what it means to walk in the Spirit.

The fifth, and what we are now in the middle of, is a revelation of His righteousness imputed to us. This one is also very powerful in my own life.

There have been others, but it seems like these have been the main things God has reiterated to us over and over again.

God also told us that we needed some sort of discipleship program. We prayed about it and He gave us about eight lessons that are foundational for believers. Every new believer goes through a nine week class that covers these lessons. We call it New Beginners. We feel that this has been very foundational and many people have gotten their start here in the process of God transforming their lives.

But before you think that any of these things is responsible for God's move, I must say that is not the case. These are the things God has used to grow us and mature us so that we are more able to be used by Him. The primary thing that we have seen is that we have been willing to simply abandon ourselves to Him. No pretense. No formula. No commitment to maintaining a denominational focus, doctrine, or format. The leadership has simply made a commitment to seeking God with everything they have and being humble and obedient to whatever He tells us to do. Prayer is a big key, but not because we are trying to "pray anything in". Prayer is for the sake of allowing God to transform us personally.

I believe God's default mode is to use us in power. It is all over scripture. He is just waiting on us to be surrendered to Him. I truly believe that if we are not being used as we know God desires to do, it is entirely and 100% our fault. The thing to do is to get before God and ask Him to reveal what areas of our lives we need to surrender to Him and allow Him to change us in any way He desires to change us.

I know we so often seek a magic formula. if I do A, B, and C, then God will respond by doing D. But that just does not exist. Tried it, found it to fail, and praise God I am abandoning it. It really boils down to, "How much of Him do I want?" My actions will demonstrate my true answer to this question.


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Travis

 2018/10/11 13:11Profile
1bodySpirit
Member



Joined: 2018/9/22
Posts: 11
Richmond, California /

 Re:

Travis,

By the mercies and grace of our Lord Jesus, I thank you for your communications - here and via email. I have not been back here, for a few days, which is the reason I'm just now responding to your latest posts. I hope you will see this and, perhaps - if the Lord seems in agreement - keep our communications open. All focus and glory be to Him, the One Who calls and chooses us, as we deliberately and completely humble ourselves before Him, seeking only to worship Him in Spirit and truth, working out our salvation with fear and trembling, carrying our crosses unto death of ourselves and letting Christ reign in our mortal bodies. Amen and amen, I pray!

I sense you may have misunderstood or been uncertain, to some degree, about the intent of my questions. This is certainly understandable, given we are not well acquainted and have only a limited sampling of dialogue in this forum. Allow me to reassure you, with sincerity and a clear conscience in His Spirit, I am not seeking to copy your experiences and practices or develop any formulaic approach to my faith. In fact, similar to certain aspects of your described journey and testimonies, God brought me to a place of total surrender, resulting in an intimate, fruit-bearing, obedient walk in His Spirit's power. Beginning many years ago, He drew me to realize there was no way around picking up my cross and following daily, boasting of my weaknesses and relying completely upon the power of Christ Jesus within to establish, sustain, lead, teach and mature me - for His purposes and glorification.

Brother in His Spirit, it is because there is so little genuine desire and willingness to wait upon the Lord, letting Him transform, empower, guide and direct us, I was struck and encouraged by your report. For many years, God has graciously taught me to keep still, listen carefully, obey His every command and settle for nothing less than His ways. He has impressed upon me, repeatedly, the need to be purified and live the life of an obedient disciple, led by His Holy Spirit. In doing so, I have found very little fellowship and agreement, from those who claim to be Christian. Many are not baptized by His Spirit, while others do not follow through and continue to allow our Lord to finish the work He begins in them. Stuck in paradigms and running apart from or ahead of God, even with some level of initial grace and guidance, most people do not adhere attentively enough to the mind of Christ and remain content to simply abide in the Vine, believing they truly can do NOTHING apart from Him...

Because our Heavenly Father has dealt with me both graciously and very strictly, He has kept me rather isolated for much of my time in His Son. Here and there, over many years, I have crossed paths with saints who are tired of the norm, being prepared to let His refining fire form more gold. Ever remaining desirous to see the true circumcision-body of Christ be knitted together and working together more functionally and healthfully, I am always on the lookout for evidence of God's mutually beneficial grace and workings in the lives of other disciples. While I wholeheartedly agree about the need and importance of letting God change and conform us to the image of His Son, first individually, it is ultimately His will to connect and grow His ONE, true body of believers. I testify to you, brother, this desire and will of God is much more encompassing and possible than we may imagine. I'm convinced, in His Spirit, of the way He is working to break down our perspectives and expectations, uniting His bride across distances, cultures, etc.

I genuinely and eagerly desire to see the ways in which our Lord is working in your life and get to know you, as a fellow partaker of His grace, mercy and love. Humbly, yet boldly, I extend to you the right hand of fellowship, with hopes you will allow the Holy Spirit to reveal ways in which we may become more unified and grow, together, sharing of the gifts and grace He imparts. By doing so, I pray you will recognize this pleases our Lord and brings more glory to the Almighty and Sovereign King of Kings.

Humbly and confidently, Travis, I submit to you it is by His mercy, grace and direct guidance from our God I'm led to reach out to you. Without insistence or placing any obligation toward you, yet with pure-hearted, loving focus and intent, I hope to communicate with you ongoing and with more depth.

Meanwhile, I encourage you to never stop submitting yourself as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable, allowing God to continue refining and guide you and yours. Ever remain attentive to the Spirit and do not resist or quench His perfect will, even as it may seem new or difficult to fully appreciate. Always keep an ear ready to hear about ways He would have you recognize His chosen and faithful are simultaneously being perfected and raised up, ready to join with you in worshipping and serving Jesus. Amen!

Grace be with you in abounding measure!


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Kurt

 2018/10/16 6:05Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1904
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Kurt: Thank you for the reply brother. I don't think I misunderstood. I did not think that you were looking for a formula. I think that in the past I thought that there must be a formula. God has been teaching me differently. He has shown me that it is passionate pursuit and intimacy, nothing else, that produces His power in my life. I look forward to communicating with you. Love your heart brother. God bless.


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Travis

 2018/10/16 9:41Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 819
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Travis:

You said: "To be reconciled does not mean to be qualified for heaven. Praise God for that, but to be reconciled means to be restored to right relationship. Unfortunately, I believe, a vast number of Christians have not real concept of this. Their salvation is about their own ticket to heaven and the promise of a blessed life for themselves."

As it stands the first part is bologna, the second I agree in context of your statement.

Reconcilation with God is part of a package of new covenant blessings. Reconcilation, imputed righteousness, forgiveness of sins, indwelling Spirit of God, eternal life, sonship, adoption, and the promises of continued sanctification by the Spirit are just some of the "new birth" works of God.

Reconciliation is not isolated in scripture as a specific event/work of the Spirit, it is part and parcel of being born of God and all that goes with it.

If I have misunderstood, please elaborate so I can receive all what you said without condition.


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Marvin

 2018/10/16 11:31Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1904
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Bro. Marvin

I honestly am not sure what you meant in your reply to my post. Don't know what "the first part" that is bologna refers to. The term reconcile means to restore to right relationship. This was done through the blood of Jesus Christ. God did not offer His Son so that I could have an eternal existence in heaven. He offered His Son to bring me back into right relationship with Him again. He always had a plan and a purpose for me, from before the foundation of the world. But a Holy God, by His law, made manifest the enmity that existed between us. I have now been reconciled and the enmity has been slain in the body of Christ on the cross. I am now at peace with God, reconciled to Him, back in right relationship.

I agree, the work of God in my life goes on. He is changing me from glory to glory into His image. But I have been reconciled to Him through Christ.

See 2 Cor. 5, Ephesians 2, and Colossians 1.


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Travis

 2018/10/16 14:26Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 819
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Travis: Well, that's what I get for being in a hurry.

Quote "To be reconciled does not mean to be qualified for heaven. Praise God for that, but to be reconciled means to be restored to right relationship. Unfortunately, I believe, a vast number of Christians have not real concept of this. Their salvation is about their own ticket to heaven and the promise of a blessed life for themselves."

The first part is..."To be reconciled does not mean to be qualified for heaven."

The second is...a vast number of Christians have not real concept of this. Their salvation is about their own ticket to heaven and the promise of a blessed life for themselves."

I took issue with reconciliation 'does not mean' to be qualified for heaven. It certainly does mean that and much much more.
Texts such as Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

As I explained earlier, reconciliation is the work of God where in lay forgiveness of sins, our adoption and sonship, our imputed righteousness etc. To say reconciliation does not qualify us for heaven is also to say forgiveness of sins fails too, as well as sonship and righteousness.
Reconciliation is chained with these gracious works of God so that we have more than forgiveness we have reconciliation and more than reconciliation we have the Spirit of God and with that Eternal life.

The idea I am attempting to convey is similar to this text
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption...

In Christ there is more than sanctification there is redemption etc.
So with reconciliation there is righteousness, peace with God, the Holy Spirit.
To omit one aspect calls all others into suspicion because with reconciliation belong all the rest of God's gracious works on our behalf.

Those who are reconciled to God are possessors of eternal life and inheritors of the world to come.

Travis, I hardly think you would disagree with any of this, but it may have been mis-stated and/or I misconstrued your meaning.


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Marvin

 2018/10/16 16:33Profile
1bodySpirit
Member



Joined: 2018/9/22
Posts: 11
Richmond, California /

 Re:

Dear Brother Travis,

I thank you for clarifying and wonder if I ought ask you to forgive me, as I may have incorrectly read too much into your past replies. Upon prayerfully reading, again, as well as receiving your gentle note, now, I see you were simply sharing your own changes in perspective. In any case, praise the Living Father for allowing us to share in His grace, mercy, love and for giving us the spiritual enlightenment to realize the way He is to be found and the need to abide in Him, once He has revealed Himself for fully to us.

You and yours remain in my prayers. I relish the opportunity to stay in touch and look forward to fellowshipping with you.

May His love and grace abound, evermore, in your life and the life of all who call on the Lord with pure hearts!

Amen and amen!


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Kurt

 2018/10/16 16:48Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7404
Mississippi

 Re: Letting them walk away

Wow! Amazing thread - so much meat and so edifying.Thank- you and God bless you all for sharing this.

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2018/10/16 21:53Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1904
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Marvin: Let me see if I can say what I was meaning more clearly. We assign so much meaning to words sometimes that just hearing the word will bring up certain mental images and ideas. There are many things that occur when we are born again. There are many facets to our growth in Christ. But the question is, what is the purpose of His sacrifice and of the gospel of the new covenant? I think that, for some time now, the American church at large has made it about having our ticket punched. How many times have you heard this altar call? "If you were to die tonight, do you know where you would spend eternity? Would it be with God in heaven, or in eternal hell?" Suddenly the gospel becomes about me gaining an eternal reward and avoiding hell. This altar call is not the gospel. Heaven and hell is not what it is all about.

But the focus of the gospel has always been restoration of right relationship with God. it has always been about Him bringing many sons to glory, not many people to heaven. It is about enmity with Him being done away with and intimacy restored. Why intimacy? Because it is through communion with Him with open face (nothing between us and full relationship restored) that we are changed from glory to glory into His image. His desire is to know His bride and to have them be partakers of His divine nature. It is about death to self and rebirth into the life of God.

Heaven will be awesome. There are times when I feel like my heart cries, "Even so Lord come quickly." But heaven is not what redemption is all about. The plan of redemption is about restoration of relationship (reconciliation) and transformation into His image. That is why I said that to be reconciled does not mean to be qualified for heaven. Praise God that by being reconciled I reap the reward of eternity in His presence, but that is not in and of itself what reconciliation is. It is a result of being reconciled.

I think the problem all too often is that we mistake the benefit for the purpose. Does being reconciled mean that I am going to heaven. Praise God yes. Is reconciliation about going to heaven? I would say no, and also that to say it was about going to heaven would be to preach much less than the truth, and possibly lead people astray.


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Travis

 2018/10/16 22:02Profile





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