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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A Question on the Donkey

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BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 657
Australia

 Re:


"Mild disagreement is not hostile opposition."


Agree, Todd. I did not mean you.




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Jade

 2018/9/19 9:02Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 657
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 Re:


Erased - Duplicate post


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Jade

 2018/9/19 9:23Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
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 Re:


Elizabeth,

“Now, .. does man still want to ‘see’ the man, and NOT see what He has/ ,..
or/ is saying to us ?..... A Jesus, without The Word?.... (another jesus?)”

Jesus HIMSELF is the Word of God (John 1:1).



How was Jesus humble?

Phil. 2:8 - Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.



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Jade

 2018/9/19 9:26Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 657
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 Re:


Hi Marvin,

(1)

You wrote:
“but the question remains "what is over-spiritualizing"?
I believe the answer lay in a few things.
1. making word connections that are not justified by other more explicit teachings of scripture.
2. by making word connections loaded with anecdotal proofs that are better explained by clear and explicit doctrinal exposition.
3. by making word connections that entail the mixing of metaphor, analogy and hyperbole so as to create an innovative meaning to a context that was not designed to create that line of thinking.”

And how do you reject something as “over-spiritualized” by the above criteria except by your own human judgement, reasoning, exposition and decision? Are you more infallible?


(2)

Think about this:

Gen. 16:11-12
Ishmael = wild donkey

Gal. 4:22-31
Son of the bondwoman (which is Ishmael son of Hager) = Mt Sinai
Mt Sinai = Old Covenant
Therefore Israel under Old Covenant = Ishmael = Wild donkey (?)

Any comment?



(3)

Actually I don’t really understand what you mean by “spiritualizing” the donkey.

To me the donkey is just a PICTURE that illustrates a spiritual truth.

If we take away the picture of the donkey, can you find any error in what I wrote?



God bless.


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Jade

 2018/9/19 10:54Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1120
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Jade:

you asked, "And how do you reject something as “over-spiritualized” by the above criteria except by your own human judgment, reasoning, exposition and decision? Are you more infallible?"

1 Corinthians 2:15

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

It is the normative of Christian living to judge what you hear and what you read, and according as God has given to me/others the Holy Spirit and knowledge of the Truth I/they judge the validity of what is heard and read.

Just as you read what I wrote and have called it into question characterizing it as 'human judgment'. In doing what you did, you judged what I said and have doubted its relevance to what you have been saying, hence the later questions. Since you also characterized my claims in a negative fashion you have brought into question the veracity of my claims. You have judged/discerned what I said because it came naturally to you because the Spirit of God in you is the teacher of truth, therefore whatever does not sit well in your understanding is called into question.

To my knowledge you claim no infallibility in your judgments, and I surely claim the same.

But we are taught from the scriptures we are students of the word and not masters of it, therefore as we learn we discern, as we gain new information it is sifted through a grid of knowledge already attained and inwardly trusted as 'Truth from God'.

Therefore I judge, I discern, I call into question or I may weight it out and condemn it if it is false and accept it if it is true. I believe you do this exact same thing.

The analogy of Ishmael being a 'work of the flesh' and the offspring of mans effort to bring to pass the promise of God. Ishmael/ Canaan, Amorites Esau, all represent the 'ungodly/worldly man/men of carnal living/ unelected and unenlightened men. This representation/metaphor is found in numerous places in scripture and therefore is explicitly taught.
You allusions to these are accurate and rightly presented.

The Donkey is an allusion as well, representing the willful and stubborn heart of man. But the Donkey being ridden of Christ was not in that text the intent of the passage. The intent is given to us
Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

The intent is to show two important things.
1. Who is riding upon the young donkey and
2. what his entrance into Jerusalem should look like.

The point of the colt was to identify the Messiah coming to Jerusalem. The colt was not here intended to represent anything other than the 'manner in which the Messiah sought to display himself'.

Though other passages may in fact allude to donkeys as characteristic of fallen human nature, in the 4 gospels, all of them allude specifically to the prophetic word being fulfilled as to the manner of Messiah's appearing.

So, while you are accurate as to Ishmael/Esau = fallen human nature = a type in the figure of a donkey the Zachariah text is not drawing our attention to a 'type' by use of the colt of an ass, but the person of the Messiah where the writer really wanted us to focus.

Overspiritualizing a text, disregards the context of a passage to maintain a very wooden/rigid interpretation to be thrust upon every passage that contains the same word/thing/person.

I hope this clarifies my posting.


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Marvin

 2018/9/19 13:55Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1120
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

It would be fair to take a second look at the Matt 21:7 text and the Zachariah 9 text and take away something that was explicitly spoken in the text but (as far as I have read other posts)is lacking in explanation.

Since Jesus riding on the colt is really secondary to the purpose of the texts, that is to invite the reader of the Matthew and Zachariah text to recognize Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah to the Jews.
Jesus has salvation to offer, Jesus is just and righteous, Jesus is lowly and Jesus declaring his righteous intent sought to keep every word of God, therefore sought the colt of a Donkey that when the time appointed of the Father had come, he would display himself by an act of obedience by riding upon the colt and by entering the city that has yet to recognize him as Messiah.

Our focus should be upon Jesus, upon his having salvation and upon his being just and him being lowly.

Allusions from that explicit declaration of his character should then be applied to our own need of character and our own desire to imitate Jesus Christ, to put on Christ and to know Christ will live out his lowliness, righteousness and offer of salvation through us. To me bridging from Christ character to what God is doing for us and in us lends to edification.


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Marvin

 2018/9/19 14:25Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
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 Re: A Question on the Donkey

A late contribution as to what the donkey (the ass) represents:

"But vain man is void of understanding, Yea, man is born as a wild ass's colt." (Job 11:12 ASV)

That is why "And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break its neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy sons shalt thou redeem." (Ex. 13:13 ASV)


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Allan Halton

 2018/9/19 17:15Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
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 Re: ADisciple


Thanks, Allan, for your contribution!

Much appreciated.


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Jade

 2018/9/20 11:27Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 657
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 Re:


Hi Marvin,

I see the wild donkey as representing fallen man. But the Lord Jesus, though “made flesh” like us was never the donkey we are. All His life on earth, He denied self/flesh and lived as the perfect and unblemished Lamb of God with no self-life but only His Father’s life in Him. Like Christ, we are to live with no self-life but Christ’s life in us.

As regards context, I hold that every passage of scripture is subject to the overall context of the whole Bible.

You said:
“Our focus should be upon Jesus, upon his having salvation and upon his being just and him being lowly.”

I say:
Our focus should be on Christ going to the cross as the unblemished Lamb of God to redeem us with His blood so that in Him we can die to self-life and be a new creation in Him with His life in us. Christ’s life is in us not by imitation but by exchange.

Bottom line:
Gal. 2:20 (Young’s Literal Translation) -- with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh -- in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;


Blessings


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Jade

 2018/9/20 11:28Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 657
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 Re:


'Tis So Sweet to Trust in Jesus – Hymn


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LJwSkEhruw


“Yes, ’tis sweet to trust in Jesus,
Just from sin and self to cease;
Just from Jesus simply taking
Life and rest, and joy and peace.”



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Jade

 2018/9/20 21:38Profile





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