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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Why the church was never a mystery or a parenthesis

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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1825
Hemel Hempstead

 Why the church was never a mystery or a parenthesis

If you understand dispensational theology the church is simply a valley between two mountains of Israel. Not only is this view antiscriptural it lessens the work that Jesus died on the cross for our sin
The Greek word for church is ecclesia.

In the septugient the same word
1577 εκκλησια occurs 118 times in the NT. occurs
75 times in the OT.
from a compound of (1537) and a derivative of (2564) ekklesia 3:501,394 ek-klay-see'-ah Noun Feminine from a compound of (1537) and a derivative of (2564) ; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both) :--assembly, church. a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating the assembly of the Israelites any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously in a Christian sense an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus

εκκλησια occurs 75 times in the OT. de.4.10 ; de.9.10 ; de.18.16 ; de.23.1 ; de.23.2 ; de.23.3 ; de.23.3 ; de.23.8 ; de.31.30 ; jos.8.35 ; jdg.20.2 ; jdg.21.5 ; jdg.21.8 ; 1sa.17.47 ; 1sa.19.20 ; 1ki.8.14 ; 1ki.8.22 ; 1ki.8.55 ; 1ki.8.65 ; 1ch.13.2 ; 1ch.13.4 ; 1ch.28.2 ; 1ch.28.8 ; 1ch.29.1 ; 1ch.29.10 ; 1ch.29.20 ; 1ch.29.20 ; 2ch.1.3 ; 2ch.1.5 ; 2ch.6.3 ; 2ch.6.3 ; 2ch.7.8 ; 2ch.10.3 ; 2ch.20.5 ; 2ch.20.14 ; 2ch.23.3 ; 2ch.28.14 ; 2ch.29.23 ; 2ch.29.28 ; 2ch.29.31 ; 2ch.29.32 ; 2ch.30.2 ; 2ch.30.4 ; 2ch.30.13 ; 2ch.30.17 ; 2ch.30.23 ; 2ch.30.24 ; 2ch.30.25 ; 2ch.30.25 ; ezr.2.64 ; ezr.10.1 ; ezr.10.8 ; ezr.10.12 ; ezr.10.14 ; ne.5.7 ; ne.5.13 ; ne.7.66 ; ne.8.2 ; ne.8.17 ; ne.13.1 ; job.30.28 ; ps.22.22 ; ps.22.25 ; ps.26.5 ; ps.26.12 ; ps.35.18 ; ps.40.9 ; ps.68.26 ; ps.89.5 ; ps.107.32 ; ps.149.1 ; pr.5.14 ; la.1.10 ; joe.2.16 ; mic.2.5 ;

Mic 2:5 5 Therefore thou shalt have none that shall cast a cord by lot in the congregation of the LORD.

The Word congregation is used in the Old Testament.

The Hebrew word qahal

(Verb) Xlit: qa-hal Trans: ROUND.UP Def: To gather together a flock, herd or group of people. Str: 6950, 7035 Wrd: קהל (Masc) Xlit: qa-hal Trans: ASSEMBLY Def: A large group, as a gathering of the flock of sheep to the shepherd. Str: 6951 Wrd: קהלה (Fem) Xlit: Trans: BANDED.FLOCK Def: A large group as a gathering of the flock to the shepherd. Alt: להקה  Str: 3862 Wrd: מקהל (Masc) Xlit: Trans: PASTURE Def: The place where the flock gathers. Str: 4721 Wrd: מקהלה (Fem) Xlit: Trans: PASTURE Def: The place where the flock gathers. Str: 4721 Wrd: קהילה (Fem) Xlit: Trans: CONGREGATED.FLOCK Def: A large group as a gathering of the flock to the shepherd. Alt: קהלה  Str: 6952

Jeff benner Hebrew lexicon

To me the church was simply not a new organisation set up at Pentecost

Hebrews 11 New King James Version (NKJV)

By Faith We Understand
11 Now faith is the [a]substance of things hoped for, the [b]evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

3 By faith we understand that the [c]worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Faith at the Dawn of History
4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Faithful Abraham
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she[d] bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

The Heavenly Hope
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off [e]were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

The Faith of the Patriarchs
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 [f]of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,” 19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones.

The Faith of Moses
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s command.

24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the [g]passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the [h]reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures [i]in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.

27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned.

By Faith They Overcame
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days. 31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who [j]did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again.

Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, [k]were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

As Hebrews 11 poses a problem as they came in by faith as Christians we are grafted into israel.

I do believe that all israel shall be saved in the last days

The other problem is revelation
Revelation 22
The New Jerusalem
9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came [f]to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the [g]bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the [h]great city, the [i]holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the [j]names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. 16 The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand [k]furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. 17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. 18 The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

The problem with this passage is that the twelve tribes are the gates and twelve apostles are the foundation which is a mixture.

The other problem is
Ephesians 5
Marriage—Christ and the Church
22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might [g]sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, [h]of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

As the context is to do with marriage not that the church was a mystery that was revealed suddenly at Pentecost. The context deals with the relationship mystery between the messiah and his church.
To take this verse out of context does so much damage.

Not to do with the fact that the prophets didn’t understand the time period now and we are waiting for the parenthesis of the church to finish.

Ephesians 2:11-13 New King James Version (NKJV)

Brought Near by His Blood
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Jew and gentile , one in messiah.

I still believe that the nation of Israel will be saved

Romans 11 New King James Version (NKJV)

Israel’s Rejection Not Total
11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. [a]But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
9 And David says:

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”
Israel’s Rejection Not Final
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their [b]fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their [c]fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and [d]fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, [e]goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

I do not believe that the church has replaced Israel but I do believe Israel will be saved as a nation and we will become one in messiah.

I find it so crazy to think that god did not know what he is doing when he created his church, I sometimes do not know who is the true church in the world at the moment. I wish I could find a church home.

I remember that the word ecclesia was used as a debating society before the word was borrowed by us.

The church is not a dot between two valleys

Dominic Shiells

 2018/9/2 13:55Profile

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