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 Torben Søndergaard

I am posting this as a new thread:

Quote:
Greg,

I have listened and watched many of his video's, and I have read his books, but I never heared him say that he is non-trinitarian.

The only thing is that he believes that we should baptise in the name of Jesus. But that is not attached to trinitarian/non-trinitarian doctrine I think.

So, how do you know this, dear brother?



Again there are many things that not just for me but other good saints have felt very much an un-easyness with this movement and the ideas and teachings they are propagating.

- The Apostles never asked people if they wanted healings to show them that God loves them, this is a new way and idea. “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” So he left them and departed” (Matt 6:14).

Our focus as the Church is the gospel message of the historic church, the birth, death, resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, not on healings.

Torben speaks in his videos of God revealing the truth in these last days but then that excludes most of Church history of missing this, this is the teaching of restorationism, that the truth and gospel was lost after the death of the apostles or at the time of constaine (AD 300) and now God is looking to restore the gospel back to the Church before the coming of the Lord. This is the belief and idea that most if not all cult groups have rested on to be able to promote any new ideas as the actual biblical apostolic truth being restored. or the Book of Acts for today.


The Church historically baptised people in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit, baptising in "Jesus" only is a new occourance in the modern (Oneness) movement. where the trinity is also done away with.

The Last Reformation movement has no official doctrinal statement other than the book of Acts. Which is abit worrysome as all main biblical doctrines that the Church has agreed on for 2000 years could be up in the air.

They are careful not to call themselves a “church,” as they see traditional church structure and practice to be extra-biblical. This is another problem where there is a dismisal of the entire strcuture of the church as historically it has been followed. The irony is that Torben will speak in many churches in denominations with buildings.

The teaching on demand of reception of gift of tongues. The Bible is clear that not all believers would have the gift of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30).


A quote:
"In almost every public statement, Torben Søndergaard reveals a latent hostility toward church government. Within the Last Reformation movement, we see extremely judgmental language toward the church and a rejection of biblical headship within the church. This is a reflection of the deeper struggle of Torben Søndergaard, who believes that God told him the church is so corrupt that it is up to him to rebuild it according to the Acts model. By contrast, the goal of Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, and the other Reformers was not to destroy or ignore the church but to purify and realign it." from: https://www.gotquestions.org/Last-Reformation.html

I share these things to warn believers of some of the possible dangers of this movement. Torben also teaching many things contrary to scriptures and to church history and this has to be mentioned in hopes he can re-consider.

his major attraction is for "out-of-church" people who have been discouraged by institutional churches and are looking for the next "thing" that will work.

Our focus needs to be on Christ. on his incarnation, death, resurrection and soon coming.

Another teaching that is very alarming that many followers have written on social media is that "christ in them" is Christ in the flesh. But that is very much contrary to Church tradition which teaches that Christ in the flesh is the incarnation period. of course the holy spirit comes to dwell in believers but that is not what the Apostle john speaks of as christ in the flesh. This is an example of a strange new doctrine and interpretation on scripture.

1 John 4:1-2 New International Version (NIV)
On Denying the Incarnation
4 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2018/8/15 7:53Profile
wijnand
Member



Joined: 2006/3/31
Posts: 110


 Re: Torben Søndergaard

Hi brother,

Even though I am carefull and not agreeing with everything that comes from Torben, I have some thoughts about your reply.

1) You said this:
"The Apostles never asked people if they wanted healings to show them that God loves them, this is a new way and idea. “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” So he left them and departed” (Matt 6:14)."

I'm not sure about this. Jesus did a lot of things and those were called signs. I see the apostles doing a lot of healings and deliverances and that was the Spirit testifying about the message. I agree that it should all be about proclaiming Jesus (live, suffering, death, resurrection, glorifying and returning)! But I see in the new testament that signs and wonders are going alongside that. Both are showing that Christ is alive.

And I have heared one of the 'leaders' say that they don't believe we should say so easy to sinners that Jesus loves them. So I'm not sure if they heal to show the love of Jesus. At least not always.

2) You said:
"Torben speaks in his videos of God revealing the truth in these last days but then that excludes most of Church history of missing this, this is the teaching of restorationism, that the truth and gospel was lost after the death of the apostles or at the time of constaine (AD 300) and now God is looking to restore the gospel back to the Church before the coming of the Lord. This is the belief and idea that most if not all cult groups have rested on to be able to promote any new ideas as the actual biblical apostolic truth being restored. or the Book of Acts for today."

The first lesson of the pioneerschool he explains that the Lord is restoring many thinks for the last 500 years. In the middle ages most of the gospel and new testament was diverted by the roman catholic church, but then there came a movement of the reformers, then the baptists, then the holinessmovement, then the pentecostles, etc. So the last 500 years we see moves in which God bring certain doctrines to life. I don't see the problem in that.

2) You said:

"The Church historically baptised people in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit, baptising in "Jesus" only is a new occourance in the modern (Oneness) movement. where the trinity is also done away with."

a. it depends what you mean with historically... I have read that the first 100/200 years people baptised in the name of Christ.

b. Like I said before, Torben doesn't believe in "oneness". But he believes that you should repent towards God the Father, you should be baptised into Christ (the Son) and you should receive (or be baptised in) the Holy Spirit.

3) You said

"The Last Reformation movement has no official doctrinal statement other than the book of Acts. Which is abit worrysome as all main biblical doctrines that the Church has agreed on for 2000 years could be up in the air."

I agree with you here. We should have the entire scripture as our guideline. But I don't believe that we should believe something 'because the church has agreed for more then 1000 years'. If Luther did it, we would still be in the mess that was there when he lived. So let's go for sola scripture!

4) You said

"They are careful not to call themselves a “church,” as they see traditional church structure and practice to be extra-biblical. This is another problem where there is a dismisal of the entire strcuture of the church as historically it has been followed. The irony is that Torben will speak in many churches in denominations with buildings."

What I have seen is this: he doesn't have problems with fellowships of believers (even though they are bigger). He has problems with institution and traditions that kill effectivess and discipelship. When I read the book you wrote with some other believers (Gospel Fellowships) I was reading the same. We are the body of Christ, not a building. We should not focus so much on a building, but on being one body ourselves. That's what they share, and what I agree on.

But you are right that you must be carefull not to attack 'the church, the believers'. Torben is not trying to destory the church but to build it up and free it from institution/corrupt systems.


5) You said:

The teaching on demand of reception of gift of tongues. The Bible is clear that not all believers would have the gift of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30).


100% agreeing, but you know that a lot of preachers on sermonindex are not agreeing with you? If this is such a big thing, why are they on sermonindex?

6) You said a quote at the last part things about that he is attacking the church (destroying it) and that he is speaking extremely judgmental. I would be very carefull with that language, especialy when you didn't speak with him yourself.

I have listened to much what he has taught, and I am disagreeing with you that he is trying to destroy the church. Also you are giving a lot of "church history", but I would be carefull with that. Church history has a lot of flaws I think.


This being said, I am not someone who is part of "the last reformation" movement because I'm not agreeing with some things and because I too have concerns. But I don't believe we should attack eachother when we didn't try to understand eachother.

I would love that we could talk with Torben, talk about these matters, pray for him, accept what is right and correct what is wrong and then to continue serving the Lord.

Written in love for Christ, for you and for the body of Christ!


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Wijnand de Ridder

 2018/8/15 10:21Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1092
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

Brother Wijnand:

That was really well said and I appreciate a better display of defense of a man that we don't know very well.

I think cautionaries are good, (I also think jumping to conclusions where false accusations or finger-pointing comes out because he isn't fitting inside 'boxes' Christians make) should be dismissed.

He may be a loon for all I know, but if he is, he will be one on biblical criteria not denominational/creedal boundary lines.


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Marvin

 2018/8/15 13:32Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1092
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re: a few rhetorical questions


Aside from Torben...

One should ask What is a real man of God? Does he practice 'non-miracle' so that he will not be thought of as a charlatan?
does he relegate any miraculous to the apostolic age and preach all logic, word, governments, churches, leaders and laity?
does he consider anyone that might be 'gifted' as needing an abundance of cautionaries regarding pride, error, ego and adding to scripture?
does he also preach to himself and his peers the same cautionaries in regards to their books, degrees, high attainments, high positions, approvals of men, applause of men?
Is a real man of God only found among the 'approved men' in various denominations and ministries?
Is a real man of God going to warn of stifling institutionalism, or is he going to promote it and denounce non-conformists?

I say none of this as a defense to Torben, I am saying this because when these ideas are fuzzy and what a man of God is has no criteria but what your own denomination says he is, the inference is, God has your denomination/ministry as the final and totality of what it is to be a man of God.

Are you prepared to own that your denomination/ministry has the fullness of what it means to be a man of God? If you are, then how are you different from Torben?


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Marvin

 2018/8/15 13:55Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1031
Oregon

 Re:

Thank you Wijnand for that defence. You have well communicated what was on my heart although I too hardly know this brother.

Also thank you Marvin for well written definition of what a man of God isn't.

Wijnand, you said you don't agree on everything with Torben and have some concerns.
Would you please relate them here? Also, I guess the major point with me would be if he denies that Jesus came in the flesh. Is that true? It seems highly unlikely that he believes that and yet it's an area that's creating some confusion.. If you have communications with him could you ask him personally?


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Fifi

 2018/8/15 14:26Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3393
East TN (for now)

 Re: Torben Søndergaard


When I created the other thread, "Warning To Churches 2018 - Don’t jump on the Catholic, Protestant and one world religion train," I had no idea of the ruckus this would cause!!

I had never heard of Torben till that day and then watched that video that I believe is right on the mark. I bet if Paul Washer made that same video word for word, everyone would be all over it, going "what an anointed right on-time video, that guy is a true man of God!"

Thank you for locking my "old thread" that was actually only 4 days old because now, wanting to see what all the ruckus is, I have bought his book, The Last Reformation.

God bless us all,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2018/8/15 22:41Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1092
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

Lisa: when youre done give us a review, the good bad and ugly.


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Marvin

 2018/8/15 22:44Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1092
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Lisa: Paul Washer polarized people very quickly, many including myself thinks he is God sent to our nation.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/8/15 22:47Profile
wijnand
Member



Joined: 2006/3/31
Posts: 110


 Re:

"Wijnand, you said you don't agree on everything with Torben and have some concerns. Would you please relate them here?"

- Sometimes they are to much focused on "doing" and to little on seeing what Christ did. That doesn't mean that they don't talk about what Christ did.. they do. For example they talk about forgivess through Christ, victory over sin, the return of Christ, etc. But they should be focused more about that. But other fellowships and groups I know focus so much on what we have in Christ that they forget about the "doing". I would love to have more of a balance in that.
- They believe that everyone can speak in languages (they call it tongues). I don't believe that. But because they believe that, they are strongly focused on people receiving it, and when people start shouting something that isn't English ... then they call it tongues. I would be more careful and are more on the side of David Pawson. When somebody receives the (fullness of the) Holy Spirit, then something will go out of his mouth, but it doesn't have to be 'tongues', but could be praise or prophesying, etc.
- They are afraid of leadership, because of the danger of becoming an institute. I believe healthy leadership (and submission) is a central part of the body of Christ (the church).
- I think they don't teach people enough about the gospel and so what Christ did for them. Everybody is running, but who is just fellowshipping with Christ?
- When they pray for people to receive the Spirit they let them close there eyes, they speak in a certain way... that looks like a trick or psycologily things. I believe that you don't see that in the bible.

But to bring balance in this reply, the positive sides:
- They are equiping people to go out, to share the gospel, to pray for people (sick/oppressed), to baptise them, to pray for the fullness of the Holy Spirit.
- They are against the word of faith movement.
- They are against the weird manifestations (shaking, drunkeness in the 'spirit', etc.).
- They learning people to pray, to fast, to study the bible themselves.
- They are prepering people for suffering for the sake of Christ.
- They are equiping people to form fellowships.
- They are focussed on discipleship.
- They are focussed on the lost.

For myself: I believe it's a move of God, but I am worried about some things that are happening. I pray that the Lord will guide them to maturity and healthyness.


"Also, I guess the major point with me would be if he denies that Jesus came in the flesh. Is that true?"

Of course not. :-)


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Wijnand de Ridder

 2018/8/16 2:56Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1057
Germany NRW

 Re:

You cannot just rely on checking his theology, but have to check their fruit, too.


Balaam had correct theology but still lead the Israelites astray.

It rings alarm bells with me that he has an issue with the church. Baptized believers must be joined to churches, as they did in the early church.

He over-emphasizes the book of Acts. The Holy Spirit moved like a fire, but it lead to the foundation of the church.
For me this movement looks more like a wildfire.

All genuine moves of God will always strengthen or build churches under the headship of Christ and under the care of elders and deacons connected with joints and ligaments of of service.

Is it only about Torben Sondergaard or does he work in fellowship with other workers?

Also, naming themself "The Last Reformation" is no insignificant claim.

Looks like a lot of hype. Let's wait and see...

BTW, I am not too comfortable with quoting www.gotquestions.org

 2018/8/17 1:43Profile





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